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rich1326
08-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Hi, i am new here and am on disability, i got a 6 question disability update report and sent it back over a month ago. does any one here know how long it should take to get something back from them. Thanks Rich.




Hoosier_Daddy
08-07-2011, 07:23 PM
Is this part of the review some of us have to get. Mine is a 3 year review. I am up for my first 1 next July?

rich1326
08-08-2011, 05:05 AM
Yes, this is a 3 year review, it is form ssa-455-ocr-sm. it only has 6 questions and gets scanned at some center. I have bad anxiety and everyday i dont get a something in the mail i get depressed. I dont know if there is a backlog or it just takes a few months.

rich1326
08-08-2011, 06:14 AM
Yes this is my 3 year review, it is form ssa-455-ocr-sm and has only 6 questions, it goes to a social security center where it gets scanned and then let you know if they need to do a full review. I have bad anxiety and every day i dont get any mail from them i get depressed.
i dont know if there is a backlog or it got lost in the mail or if it is just taking a long time to get anything back. do you know anything about this?

dollymom
08-08-2011, 08:26 PM
Yes this is my 3 year review, it is form ssa-455-ocr-sm and has only 6 questions, it goes to a social security center where it gets scanned and then let you know if they need to do a full review. I have bad anxiety and every day i dont get any mail from them i get depressed.
i dont know if there is a backlog or it got lost in the mail or if it is just taking a long time to get anything back. do you know anything about this?

After reading your note, I researched the form, and there is some information in the instructions that says, "We will tell you within 90 days after we receive the completed report whether or not we will need to do a full medical review now."

So, based on that statement, you should receive information within 90 days. If you haven't received anything from SSA after 90 days, I would call them and ask the status of the Disability Update Report.

Here is a link to the report for those of you who may be interested in it. You have to scroll up and down to get the information in order of the pages.

http://www.ssd-forms.com/SSDFacts/SSA-455-OCR-SM.pdf

untilthebell
08-09-2011, 02:42 AM
If you dont mind me asking. What disability do you suffer from? Its not easy finding review info on this forum. But my guess is they will be focussed much on if you work now. And if you discussed with your current doctor if he feels you can work, that question I feel is a joke though. Seems to favor SSA a little too much. Just because they have the doctor label does not give them a special gift to know how you personally feel mentally and physically.

Can anyone else here chime in? Nobody here had a review?

I wish you the best! Keep us updated!!

echoes long ago
08-09-2011, 01:43 PM
*admin edit* Social security offices are backed up all over the nation in doing reviews and getting the reviews they are sending out done. People have waited much longer than 3 months to hear back. Personally i would not rock the boat and would not contact them unless you hear back from them first. let the update report wind its way through the system at its own pace. if SS needs more from you they will let you know. You are receiving your disability so there is no need to rush this.

rich1326
08-09-2011, 02:46 PM
If you dont mind me asking. What disability do you suffer from? Its not easy finding review info on this forum. But my guess is they will be focussed much on if you work now. And if you discussed with your current doctor if he feels you can work, that question I feel is a joke though. Seems to favor SSA a little too much. Just because they have the doctor label does not give them a special gift to know how you personally feel mentally and physically.

Can anyone else here chime in? Nobody here had a review?

I wish you the best! Keep us updated!!

Hi, My main disability is arthritis, CFS, chronic bone pain,degenerative disc of lumbar spine and chronic anxiety, i also have Osteoporosis, endocrine disorder, monoclonal gammopathy and fibro. i am Hep c+ and went through treatment about 8 years ago, it is in remission now.

dollymom
08-09-2011, 02:51 PM
*admin edit* Social security offices are backed up all over the nation in doing reviews and getting the reviews they are sending out done. People have waited much longer than 3 months to hear back. Personally i would not rock the boat and would not contact them unless you hear back from them first. let the update report wind its way through the system at its own pace. if SS needs more from you they will let you know. You are receiving your disability so there is no need to rush this.

*admin edit* Since Rich stated that he gets "depressed" when he doesn't hear anything from SSA, he has every right to contact them. The reason a person would do so, depending on how strong they feel about their particular case (and those with a 3 year review are reviewed in 3 years and not 5 or 7 years for a reason), would be simply because of this statement on the form:

"The information you furnish on this report is voluntary. However, if you do not provide the requested information, a decision based on the evidence in your case can result in a determination that your disability has ceased."

You are right about a backlog, but you never know, maybe the form did get lost in the mail. It is probably sitting on someone's desk and they will get to it when they get to it, but if it isn't on their desk and it hasn't been received and benefits are ceased, it would be a person's own fault for not following up.

echoes long ago
08-09-2011, 04:16 PM
Dollymom you are not accurate with your information. if the first mailer is not received by SSA, they will send out another mailer before taking any action. it is a well known fact at this point that social security is backed up and understaffed. it has been in numerous newspapers, television news etc. it is not the person who is being revieweds fault for not following up. I personally would not do anything to bring attention to myself while a review mailer is being processed. nothing good can come of it. in this case the squeaky wheel may get more than it bargained for. patience is called for in this case. some people who have posted here have never heard back and their ssdi continues!

as far as 3 year reviews, some are on time but i have heard of many people with three year review dates not being reviewed even after 5-7 years.

dollymom
08-09-2011, 04:41 PM
Dollymom you are not accurate with your information. if the first mailer is not received by SSA, they will send out another mailer before taking any action. it is a well known fact at this point that social security is backed up and understaffed. it has been in numerous newspapers, television news etc. it is not the person who is being revieweds fault for not following up. I personally would not do anything to bring attention to myself while a review mailer is being processed. nothing good can come of it. in this case the squeaky wheel may get more than it bargained for. patience is called for in this case. some people who have posted here have never heard back and their ssdi continues!

as far as 3 year reviews, some are on time but i have heard of many people with three year review dates not being reviewed even after 5-7 years.

OK, I see your point about bringing attention to yourself. My point is that I will follow all the rules and schedules, based on the information sent to me. The way I see it, if you are truly disabled by social security guidelines, you have nothing to worry about, especially if you have continued to seek treatment and have medical records supporting your case. On the other hand...a person "may get more than they bargained for."

newtons1971
08-13-2011, 10:14 AM
I had my review on June 21 2011 and received my favorable reply on Aug 10 2011, and it did consist of the short form. There is a very high percentage of people using the short form who have their benefits continued, providing you keep up with your doctor visits and take your meds. I also work and make about $800.00 per month, but that is with the Doctors reply that that is all I can handle.










Dollymom you are not accurate with your information. if the first mailer is not received by SSA, they will send out another mailer before taking any action. it is a well known fact at this point that social security is backed up and understaffed. it has been in numerous newspapers, television news etc. it is not the person who is being revieweds fault for not following up. I personally would not do anything to bring attention to myself while a review mailer is being processed. nothing good can come of it. in this case the squeaky wheel may get more than it bargained for. patience is called for in this case. some people who have posted here have never heard back and their ssdi continues!

as far as 3 year reviews, some are on time but i have heard of many people with three year review dates not being reviewed even after 5-7 years.

untilthebell
08-13-2011, 12:23 PM
How does SSA/SSDI decide who gets the long form vs the short form?

gilbert
09-12-2011, 07:16 PM
Hi, i am new here and am on disability, i got a 6 question disability update report and sent it back over a month ago. does any one here know how long it should take to get something back from them. Thanks Rich.hi rich,i am on disibility for some mental health issues and i also recently completed the 6 question update report.social security replied back to me a few weeks after i sent in the update form.they told me in their letter that they didn't need to review my case at this time...

raider
10-29-2011, 12:33 PM
I had my review on June 21 2011 and received my favorable reply on Aug 10 2011, and it did consist of the short form. There is a very high percentage of people using the short form who have their benefits continued, providing you keep up with your doctor visits and take your meds. I also work and make about $800.00 per month, but that is with the Doctors reply that that is all I can handle.

Did you attach a list of all your dr visits? Or post anything in remarks section?I'm unsure it i should send just the form or an attached list.There is no way to get everything on the sheet. Thanks

LIT LOVE
10-29-2011, 04:33 PM
Did you attach a list of all your dr visits? Or post anything in remarks section?I'm unsure it i should send just the form or an attached list.There is no way to get everything on the sheet. Thanks

raider,

No, it is not advised to list your doc visits on the short form. Please read this thread I started regarding CDRs.

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread157557.html

raider
10-30-2011, 02:30 PM
Thanks,I think ive already messed up.my first diagnosis was depression and fibro. second i put back and neck pain.third degererative dic. then i put hypertention in remarks .and back and neck pain...these are all in my my court hearing papers.But it was depression fibromyalgia and hypertenion that is what i won on.I had a list all the way back to oct of 2009 to attach.I wish i would have saw this before i filled it out

LIT LOVE
10-30-2011, 03:55 PM
Thanks,I think ive already messed up.my first diagnosis was depression and fibro. second i put back and neck pain.third degererative dic. then i put hypertention in remarks .and back and neck pain...these are all in my my court hearing papers.But it was depression fibromyalgia and hypertenion that is what i won on.I had a list all the way back to oct of 2009 to attach.I wish i would have saw this before i filled it out

Have you already mailed it? If you haven't, you can reprint the form online, I believe. Or you could call and ask for a replacement.

Otherwise, I'm sure you'll be fine. It is how we should ideally handle the CDR process, but it doesn't mean you'll lose your benefits. The long form is not to be trifled with though.

I found this info after filling out my first CDR as well! Luckily, I had no problems.

raider
10-30-2011, 05:34 PM
Have you already mailed it? If you haven't, you can reprint the form online, I believe. Or you could call and ask for a replacement.

Otherwise, I'm sure you'll be fine. It is how we should ideally handle the CDR process, but it doesn't mean you'll lose your benefits. The long form is not to be trifled with though.

I found this info after filling out my first CDR as well! Luckily, I had no problems.

Thanks so much.On your first one did did u write your visits in the remarks or add an attachment
This is stressful. I'm sure I've now made it harder than it had to be.I was listing all my appointments

LIT LOVE
10-30-2011, 06:47 PM
Thanks so much.On your first one did did u write your visits in the remarks or add an attachment
This is stressful. I'm sure I've now made it harder than it had to be.I was listing all my appointments

I didn't write my visits at all. I just wrote what my disability was, and wasn't careful that it exactly matched my original application,although it maybe did, and I didn't take a copy of it. I really didn't understand the CDR process.

Ignorance is bliss. I didn't mean to upset you. I thought you hadn't sent it. If you've mailed it, there's nothing to do but wait. And the odds are you're fine!

raider
10-30-2011, 07:30 PM
I didn't write my visits at all. I just wrote what my disability was, and wasn't careful that it exactly matched my original application,although it maybe did, and I didn't take a copy of it. I really didn't understand the CDR process.

Ignorance is bliss. I didn't mean to upset you. I thought you hadn't sent it. If you've mailed it, there's nothing to do but wait. And the odds are you're fine!

Not mailed just Filled it out in pen..Lol..You didn't upset me.I appreciate the help.I Don't understand it either.I thought it meant all dr visits so i started with most recent the first was related to my disabity ..the next two were chiropractic. a couple in my remarks were disability related.thats why im wondering if i should do an attachment.I just got through 2010,

raider
10-30-2011, 07:40 PM
Not mailed just Filled it out in pen..Lol..You didn't upset me.I appreciate the help.I Don't understand it either.I thought it meant all dr visits so i started with most recent the first was related to my disabity ..the next two were chiropractic. a couple in my remarks were disability related.thats why im wondering if i should do an attachment.I just got through 2011, and i'm suppose to do through oct 2009

LIT LOVE
10-30-2011, 07:54 PM
Not mailed just Filled it out in pen..Lol..You didn't upset me.I appreciate the help.I Don't understand it either.I thought it meant all dr visits so i started with most recent the first was related to my disabity ..the next two were chiropractic. a couple in my remarks were disability related.thats why im wondering if i should do an attachment.I just got through 2010,

You are filling out the 6 question short form, correct?

Does it say OCR?

raider
10-30-2011, 08:05 PM
You are filling out the 6 question short form, correct? yes thats the one..i thought i was doing it right.I THOUGHT IT MEANT ALL DRS \VISITS NOT JUST THE ONES WHO TREAT ME FOR MY DISABILITES.So i used alot of my space on back neck shoulder pain
(chiropractic)..

(

raider
10-30-2011, 08:20 PM
You are filling out the 6 question short form, correct?Yes it was..I just thought they Wanted all Drs.so Vists to chiropractor took up alot of my space that should have went to my disability.I go to my Neurologist 4-5 Times a year so i wondered about attaching a sheet of paper.But from what ive read thats not good.but the form just gets me through Jan 2011 I'm suppose to go to Oct 2009..

raider
10-30-2011, 08:27 PM
yes thats the one..i thought i was doing it right.I THOUGHT IT MEANT ALL DRS \VISITS NOT JUST THE ONES WHO TREAT ME FOR MY DISABILITES.So i used alot of my space on back neck shoulder pain
(chiropractic).. 6 questions and a remarks section ...It should say drs that are treating you for your disability condition.
(

again i appreciate your help

LIT LOVE
10-30-2011, 08:32 PM
again i appreciate your help


Sorry I was editing while you were answering. Does your form say 455 OCR? I'm looking at the versions, and I'm guessing you received the older 9 question version.

LIT LOVE
10-30-2011, 09:07 PM
sorry raider, I think I finally get what you've done.

Assuming you're talking about the OCR form, the instructions IMO are only asking for your past 3 appointments, not your past 2 years worth. If your 3 most recent appointments are to a chiropractor, then I'd probably use the additional space. So long as you have a GP or specialist listed in the past 12 months, I'd stop as early as you list it. I wouldn't add an additional sheet if at all possible.

raider
10-30-2011, 09:16 PM
sorry raider, I think I finally get what you've done.

Assuming you're talking about the OCR form, the instructions IMO are only asking for your past 3 appointments, not your past 2 years worth. If your 3 most recent appointments are to a chiropractor, then I'd probably use the additional space. So long as you have a GP or specialist listed in the past 12 months, I'd stop as early as you list it. I wouldn't add an additional sheet if at all possible.

ssa-455-ocr-sm is the form
I see what your saying now i ve really messed this up.

LIT LOVE
10-30-2011, 09:21 PM
ssa-455-ocr-sm is the form
I see what your saying now i ve really messed this up.

I sent you a pm. I think it's easily fixable! Don't stress please!

echoes long ago
10-31-2011, 10:44 AM
Raider, call and get another copy. fill in just the spaces for the last 3 doctors visits that pertain to why you receive disability. for example if you are getting it because of more than one disease or condition make sure the last 3 visits you list reflect that. so if its say neurological and pulmonary make sure that you put your last visit for neurological and pulmonary even if your actual last 3 doctors visits were not one of them. only fill in the boxes. stop mid word if you have to do not write anything else on the form or in remarks section. this will cause your form to have to be evaluated by a person and you dont want that.

echoes long ago
10-31-2011, 12:09 PM
http://nymakesworkpay.org/docs/Guide_CDR.pdf

this is a helpful site for filling out cdr's

LIT LOVE
10-31-2011, 01:12 PM
http://nymakesworkpay.org/docs/Guide_CDR.pdf

this is a helpful site for filling out cdr's

It was after his following my link to that site that made him realize there was an issue with how he had started out filling out the form... ;)

raider
10-31-2011, 06:18 PM
Raider, call and get another copy. fill in just the spaces for the last 3 doctors visits that pertain to why you receive disability. for example if you are getting it because of more than one disease or condition make sure the last 3 visits you list reflect that. so if its say neurological and pulmonary make sure that you put your last visit for neurological and pulmonary even if your actual last 3 doctors visits were not one of them. only fill in the boxes. stop mid word if you have to do not write anything else on the form or in remarks section. this will cause your form to have to be evaluated by a person and you dont want that.

I've heard if you request a new form they send you one thats read manually because a private company sends the computer genenerated one
??????

gilbert
10-31-2011, 07:54 PM
Hi, i am new here and am on disability, i got a 6 question disability update report and sent it back over a month ago. does any one here know how long it should take to get something back from them. Thanks Rich.hi rich,social security sends 2 different types of forms to people when they are up for review.1 is a 10 page report which is simular to the report you filled out when first applying for disibility.the 2nd form in which your refereing to is called the (easy form) which is the 6 question form you recievied.social security only sends the 6 question form out to people who's disibility isn't most likely to improve and chances are when you recieve a reply from social security your benefits are going to continue.

untilthebell
11-01-2011, 03:50 AM
I believe I asked this before. But if one on SSDI is still taking their medication for what they were approved for, seeing docs on a regular basis and not working. Do they still have to be concerned of possibly losing their benefits?

LIT LOVE
11-01-2011, 09:31 AM
I believe I asked this before. But if one on SSDI is still taking their medication for what they were approved for, seeing docs on a regular basis and not working. Do they still have to be concerned of possibly losing their benefits?

Possibly. The short OCR form is reviewed by a computer. If you fill it out properly, take your meds, regularly see a doc, claim your condition is unchanged, do no work, in most cases you'll get the letter stating your benefits will continue.

If it gets kicked by an error, than human judgement comes into play. You might get the long form, which you're supposed to treat as if it's your initial application. You might get sent back to SS docs again.

Having to deal with the long form would be as fun as having a root canal IMO.

The CDR link explains all this in-depth.

untilthebell
11-01-2011, 06:00 PM
So if one gets the long form, its like re-applying all over again? Even though one was already approved and following doctors orders?


Possibly. The short OCR form is reviewed by a computer. If you fill it out properly, take your meds, regularly see a doc, claim your condition is unchanged, do no work, in most cases you'll get the letter stating your benefits will continue.

If it gets kicked by an error, than human judgement comes into play. You might get the long form, which you're supposed to treat as if it's your initial application. You might get sent back to SS docs again.

Having to deal with the long form would be as fun as having a root canal IMO.

The CDR link explains all this in-depth.

LIT LOVE
11-01-2011, 06:22 PM
So if one gets the long form, its like re-applying all over again? Even though one was already approved and following doctors orders?

You're supposed to treat it that way, yes.

I see you found my SHOCKING thread. You'll find the CDR statistics there as well under the DDS section. I thought very few people lost benefits once approved. The numbers are rising. SSDI beneficiaries fare better with CDRs than those collecting SSI.

Look at AZ for example. 25% lose SSDI, 40% lose SSI after a CDR. Yikes

untilthebell
11-01-2011, 09:13 PM
I just hope they are going after the proper individuals who are robbing it from those who really are disabled. Its sad when you have a true disabilty and your denied and put through such stress, yet others with a so called bad back are out playing golf,working and still collecting disability.

And the link you posted was great (Thank You).Some of those numbers were a bit shocking yes.Being so new to this SSDI thing I had no clue that many lost their benefits when review time came.

Do you personally know anyone who lost their benefits? If so why?

Hope everybody is well!





You're supposed to treat it that way, yes.

I see you found my SHOCKING thread. You'll find the CDR statistics there as well under the DDS section. I thought very few people lost benefits once approved. The numbers are rising. SSDI beneficiaries fare better with CDRs than those collecting SSI.

Look at AZ for example. 25% lose SSDI, 40% lose SSI after a CDR. Yikes

LIT LOVE
11-01-2011, 09:54 PM
I just hope they are going after the proper individuals who are robbing it from those who really are disabled. Its sad when you have a true disabilty and your denied and put through such stress, yet others with a so called bad back are out playing golf,working and still collecting disability.

And the link you posted was great (Thank You).Some of those numbers were a bit shocking yes.Being so new to this SSDI thing I had no clue that many lost their benefits when review time came.

Do you personally know anyone who lost their benefits? If so why?

Hope everybody is well!

No, not that I know personally more than having a passing aquaintenance with.

Here's the thing, there are people that work the system, and if you have real evidence of someone doing so, you should report them. But, it's difficult even with an in-depth medical review for a doc with lots of experience to always get it right. That's why there is so many safety nets to keep having applications reexamined. If you saw me out in public, you would question why I was approved. The reality of my life is that I'm homebound except for a few days a month due to pain and the side effects of meds. I don't owe anyone an explanation of why I receive SSDI, and I extend the same courtesy. Those that pose questions that imply they're trying to work the system, I usually will question. In order to be proactive to qualify for or to retain benefits, it pays to be savvy about the system, though... There are no easy answers.

LIT LOVE
11-01-2011, 10:04 PM
Untilthebell, anyone working will get the long form CDR and might get pulled back in to see SS docs. Working and going to school are both alerts that someone's health may have improved.

Someone that is very knowledgable confirmed that if you stay below $720 in PT work, you're less likely to lose your benefits. (That's the amount that counts towards Trial Work Period months)

gilbert
11-02-2011, 11:49 AM
You're supposed to treat it that way, yes.

I see you found my SHOCKING thread. You'll find the CDR statistics there as well under the DDS section. I thought very few people lost benefits once approved. The numbers are rising. SSDI beneficiaries fare better with CDRs than those collecting SSI.

Look at AZ for example. 25% lose SSDI, 40% lose SSI after a CDR. Yikes

a very close friend of mine who was collecting ssdi benefits for about 9 years for depression and migraine headaches recently had his ssdi benefits terminated due to not seeing a doctor on a regular basis.infact,he had not seen a doctor since social security last reviewed his case in 2004 in which his benefits were continued at that time.he was sent to one of their doctors as part of the cdr review.due to some financial problems he's been haveing lately he has been unable to afford to go to the doctor and has no way to get there since his car was repossesed.he was sent the 10 page report to fill out as part of the review.since he has not been seing any doctors there was basically not much to fill out on the form except for some basic information.after about 3 weeks after sending in the form he recieved a letter telling him that his benefits were being terminated due to his medical improvement.i guess social security assumed that since he hasn't been to a doctor in a while that his condition has improved to the point where he can return to work and to terminated benefits..i read a story online about this very subject about people who are being affected by the economy and can't afford to go to the doctor on a regular basis and who's benefits are being stopped due to not receiving treatment for their disabling condition.the article went on to say that social security is cracking down on people who aren't truly disabled and who are not seeing a doctor on a regular basis.once approved for ssdi benefits that doesn't mean you have a free pass for benefits for the rest of your life.you must continually prove to social security by continueing to see your doctors and takeing medications so that when the time comes for your cdr review you will have all of the evidence needed to prove that your still disabled and to have your benefits continued.

ginnie
11-02-2011, 11:56 AM
I have a question about my benefits and the reviews. Are we suppose to contact the medicare agency if we get another new diaganosis? I developed something else serious, and was wondering if I should do so. ginnie

LIT LOVE
11-03-2011, 05:55 AM
I have a question about my benefits and the reviews. Are we suppose to contact the medicare agency if we get another new diaganosis? I developed something else serious, and was wondering if I should do so. ginnie

So long as you've been approved, there's no need to update them you've gotten worse. If your health improves more than when you were approved, then there is a legal requirement. Otherwise, let sleeping dogs lie...

untilthebell
11-03-2011, 10:56 AM
Another CDR- review question.

IF one applied for SSDI on many different issues. For example my husband applied for Irritable bowel didease, Depression,anxiety, arthritis and epilepsy but he was only approved for SSDI for Arthritis & Epilepsy. So when review time comes does he mention the depression, anxiety & IBS? OR just mention and speak about what he was approved on?

Even though he was not approved from depression,anxiety and IBS he still takes meds for all. Plus he is not working at all and see's his doctors regular, every few months.

Thank You!

Hope everybody is well!!!

ginnie
11-03-2011, 11:28 AM
Yes I got worse. thanks for your responce. I tread lightly where benefits are concerned and try to do all the right things. Appreciate the answer. ginnie

LIT LOVE
11-03-2011, 11:31 AM
Another CDR- review question.

IF one applied for SSDI on many different issues. For example my husband applied for Irritable bowel didease, Depression,anxiety, arthritis and epilepsy but he was only approved for SSDI for Arthritis & Epilepsy. So when review time comes does he mention the depression, anxiety & IBS? OR just mention and speak about what he was approved on?

Even though he was not approved from depression,anxiety and IBS he still takes meds for all. Plus he is not working at all and see's his doctors regular, every few months.

Thank You!

Hope everybody is well!!!

The Surviving a Continuing Disability Review GUIDE that I believe you already read, advises that you "use the same diagnosis for which the individual was originally approved." ;)

echoes long ago
11-03-2011, 11:49 AM
short form just fill out for what you were approved for. long form, put in what you were approved for plus whatever else is going on.

LIT LOVE
11-03-2011, 12:45 PM
short form just fill out for what you were approved for. long form, put in what you were approved for plus whatever else is going on.

You're right, I was assuming the question was in regards to the short form!

granny k
08-04-2013, 10:28 PM
oh i can't even seem to post correctly and i am soooo scared i had my psychologist help me fill out my update report...the 6 question ssdi form, and we corrected the phone number on the front page and now it will get kicked out and go to a person and then i am going to get the long form aren't i? :( i want to cry ....cognitive disorders do not help