The REAL cause of PD

[reverett123]

Thanks to CTenaLouise for the thread titled "Neurogenesis" and the article at http://seedmagazine.com/news/2006/02/the_reinvention_of_the_self.php?page=all&p=y

This is the central part of what Anne Frobert and I have been working on for the last year. There is much more, but this is the heart and if you let this article about the research of Elizabeth Gould sink in you will begin to understand the cause(s) of our PD and most importantly, things we can do about it.

In a nutshell, although there are other causes that contribute, PD is a stress-induced illness. Weird stress response is not a symptom but a cause, the primary cause, in fact. And while the damage undeniably involves the nervous system, the causes are the domain of not the neurologist but the endocrinologist. And to make matters even worse, before the problem lands in the camp of neurology, it has to pass through the territory of the immunologist as well. And that is why PD has stymied science for so long. It lies at the juncture of several disciplines whose members do not communicate with one another.

Stress induces a cascade of events whose result is an increase in the level of cortisol in our system. In a normal person cortisol levels rise to a peak in the early morning and drop throughout the day. In a PWP the pattern is disrupted - the morning peak is eliminated and levels "flat line" through the day BUT at an elevated level. We have chronic high cortisol. We are in a perpetual fight or flight response. A lifetime of that takes a toll.

It can begin in the womb as the result of bacterial toxins or maternal stress hormones. It can result from stressful childhoods. It can even result from a young man's experience in a war zone because the brain remains plastic until the late teens at least.

Some of you may remember from the old BT forum that when we polled ourselves that eighty percent of us had unusually stressful childhoods. Chronic stress and a plastic brain is a dangerous combination.

As a species we are designed for acute stress. Sudden and short. We have a much harder time with chronic stress. Constant. Always there. Our fight or flight gets stuck in the on position.

You remember Daffy and I jousting about the role of soot from the Industrial Revolution in PD. I do count soot as a factor. But there was something else that came with the IR. The nature of stress changed from predominantly acute to predominantly chronic. The clock took over our lives. We had a boss looking over our shoulders. Noise. Pollution.

That kind of stress takes a toll not only on ourselves but on our offspring as well. Stress accumulates over generations! The phenomenon is called "hormonal programming." Your mom is stressed out, you are more so, and your child even more so. Carry that out over the generations and the trend is greater and greater problems.

If this is all true, then there are new avenues open to us. Anything that relaxes us is a move in the right direction. Shed the high stress job. Take up fishing. Meditate. Yoga. Tai chi. Music. Whatever works.

Then look for the things that aid repair. But if we don't deal with our stress response, then nothing works.

Forgive the Rev for preaching, but if I didn't care about you I'd just go fishing. :)

[Sasha]

While I know you are talking about biochemical and structural changes within the brain, reverett, I wonder how many of us have experienced immediate, extreme stress responses? There are days I can hardly haul myself out of work with my cane (I wonder how they would take it if a government employee resorted to crawling down the marble hall to the parking garage?) anyway, 45 minutes later, laughing with friends or working in my garden, I don't even need the cane!
And yes, I've had a life and childhood with extreme stress at times.

I think you are really on to something. Thanks for sharing some of your ideas.

[steffi 001]

...this is why I am still doing ok 12 years into the disease.
I say "sod it" and laugh a lot these days.
Formerly as a perfectionist,a workaholic,an avid worrier,a pereson who didn`t know how to say NO to anyones request,someone who lined up her washing on the line with a set square...and whose hair had to look as if it had been ironed...I guess I`ve now learned how to cope with stress.
A little late but hey...I`m having a fun time right now throwing my cares to the wind.

Look like a bag lady but having a whale of a time.
x

[vlhperry]

Steffi has remarkably turned a tragedy in her life to an opportunity to make a positive change. Bless her for telling her story. Some of us were damaged so much by bad stress (rather than good stress that you get at a job in an encouraging and caring environment.) Laura is another example of someone who turned a whole life of tragedy, more than anyone I know, into a positive by creating a forum for people with PD to share their artistic side.

There are some circumstances where you just can't quite make the transition. I have recently been diagnosed with organic personality disorder which means I have poor judgement. Between bad genetics and living stressed out during my teen years non-stop due to child abuse, I just can't get as positive an attitude. Too much damage to my brain. But I can research and defend an idea and have the love of a good man.

Rick, I read Tina's posts and have a more hopeful outlook as a result. I hope that if all the tests proved positive, a no patent will be generated so all can benefit from the research you and others have been working on.:winky:

Vicky

[paula_w]

I''m starting to really enjoy this thread. I just got home after a long day of socialization, which is always challenging. I had first a baby shower to attend and then an adult party at the same house. It was my second party attended there and people were getting to know me and get used to PD symptoms.

There was dancing all night, especially with the women. We had so much fun dancing to the oldies.

Drinking and silliness abounded. But no hostility, no demands, no judging people, lots and lots of laughter and interestingly, a protectiveness from them when I would carelessly turn around on the dance floor and lose my balance.

Baby boomers do rock; they need to relax more.

It's like stress is the only emotion acceptable. I 'd love to see some people take a personal gigantic chill. Stress may have caused PD, but this forum doesn't have to be stress.

So someone witty make an effort; should everything be brought to readers like personal home entertainment?

sorry needs its own thread. oops

:rolleyes:

paula

[steffi 001]

A few years ago I would not have had the same outlook.I have come to realise with PD that you cannot plan,you cannot assume,you cannot say how things will be in the future.It has taken me almost 12 years to shake off the "trying to fix the world and all who are in it" tag,
Believe me,I used to shoulder everyones hurts,fears,worries,anxieties and then try to deal with mine.I couoldn`t say NO to anyone so as a result Iendured serious burnout and fatigue.I was a perfectionist but achieved very little because I was too loaded with tasks to accomplish any of them successfully.
I hit the deck BIG TIME and considered all ways out of this life.
When my mum died...I wanted to go too,She was everything to me....but somehow you make it through.I had already nursed my father through a raw and ravaging illness.An orphan. Lost roots...a great gap in my life and I couldn`t imagine life without my two greatest friends.But you do make it.
And I was a primary school teacher,loved my job,loved the kids and spent many an evening weeping over those from a poor home.Having to retire at 40 years of age was another blow.Another change.
Vicky....we all have similar stories but hopefully can use this forum to uphold each other.
I don`t understand your diagnosis but would like to know more.That must be tough for you and I am sorry ..but it sounds as if you have a wonderful husband who is a tower of strength.That is precious.
Take care
x

[CTenaLouise]

As I was reading - the reinventing of the self.

I saw how music caused the scientist to correlate, scientific research to a Bob Dylan song - so I believe "MUSIC" to be apart of the neurogenerative
process - when people find inspiriration -
this term in latin means -spirit breathed"

so for my friend that does not have PD but reads everything I write -

here's a song of inspiration for - you~! :hug:

Bob Dylan's - thank you Bob ;)
Tangled Up In Blue Lyrics

Early one morning the sun was shining
I was laying in bed
Wond'ring if she'd changed it all
If her hair was still red
Her folks they said our lives together
Sure was gonna be rough
They never did like Mama's homemade dress
Papa's bankbook wasn't big enough
And I was standing on the side of the road
Rain falling on my shoes
Heading out for the East Coast
Lord knows I've paid some dues getting through
Tangled up in blue.

She was married when we first meet
Soon to be divorced
I helped her out of a jam I guess
But I used a little too much force
We drove that car as far as we could
Abandoned it out West
Split it up on a dark sad night
Both agreeing it was best
She turned around to look at me
As I was walking away
I heard her say over my shoulder
"We'll meet again someday on the avenue"
Tangled up in blue.

I had a job in the great north woods
Working as a cook for a spell
But I never did like it all that much
And one day the ax just fell
So I drifted down to New Orleans
Where I happened to be employed
Working for a while on a fishing boat
Right outside of Delacroix
But all the while I was alone
The past was close behind
I seen a lot of women
But she never escaped my mind and I just grew
Tangled up in blue.

She was working in a topless place
And I stopped in for a beer
I just kept looking at her side of her face
In the spotlight so clear
And later on as the crowd thinned out
I's just about to do the same
She was standing there in back of my chair
Said to me "Don't I know your name ?"
I muttered something underneath my breath
She studied the lines on my face
I must admit I felt a little uneasy
When she bent down to tie the laces of my shoe
Tangled up in blue.

She lit a burner on the stove and offered me a pipe
"I thought you'd never say hello" she said
"You look like the silent type"
Then she opened up a book of poems
And handed it to me
Written by an Italian poet
From the thirteenth century
And every one of them words rang true
And glowed like burning coal
Pouring off of every page
Like it was written in my soul from me to you
Tangled up in blue :cool:

I lived with them on Montague Street
In a basement down the stairs
There was music in the caf,s at night
And revolution in the air
Then he started into dealing with slaves
And something inside of him died
She had to sell everything she owned
And froze up inside
And when finally the bottom fell out
I became withdrawn
The only thing I knew how to do
Was to keep on keeping on like a bird that flew
Tangled up in blue.

So now I'm going back again
I got to get her somehow
All the people we used to know
They're an illusion to me now
Some are mathematicians
Some are carpenter's wives
Don't know how it all got started
I don't what they're doing with their lives
But me I'm still on the road
Heading for another joint
We always did feel the same
We just saw it from a different point of view
Tangled up in Blue.

[Daffy Duck]

If stress was the REAL cause of Parkinson's Disease, then the most stressed of people would have Parkinson's Disease but they don't.

Persistent famines, warfare, dire poverty, lawlessness, severe malnutrition, is what the Ethiopians have to deal with, yet Ethiopians have the world's LOWEST prevalence of Parkinson's Disease.

The lowest prevalence of Parkinson's Disease in Europe is amongst the Bulgarian Gypsies yet they have the greatest amount of stress to deal with due to their high crime rates, poverty, ill health, malnutrition, and grossly inadequate healthcare and social services.

The biochemical fault that has persistently been found to coincide with Parkinson's Disease is the low levels of the enzymes required for the formation of dopamine. Stress does not affect these enzyme levels at all.

L-dopa can potently relieve symptoms of Parkinson's Disease due to its ability to form dopamine. Due to also being the precursor of adrenaline, L-dopa has the capacity to increase stress. If the theory was right L-dopa would increase symptoms, but it does the opposite.

So the claim that stress is the REAL cause of Parkinson's Disease is plainly inconsistent with the facts.

Acetylcholine increases muscle contraction. Dopamine reduces muscle contraction. Parkinson's Disease occurs when there is not enough dopamine to counter the effect of increased muscle contraction.

The reason why there appears to be a coincidence between stress and Parkinsons' Disease symptoms is that when somebody is stressed they produce adrenaline. Adrenaline increases the effect of acetylcholine and thereby temporarily increases Parkinson's Disease symptoms due to increasing muscle contraction.

So rather than stress being the cause of Parkinson's Disease, stress merely exacerbates Parkinson's Disease symptoms.

[EnglishCountryDancer]

I have my doubts about your theory.If the general non P.D community was polled how many would say they had a stressful early life?Are there more cases of P.D in communities that have experienced war in the time before or after birth of a certain age group?One has to be very careful not to do what has been done by some well respected great and good pyschologists (I only know about them as child pyschology is my field) and make the facts fit the theory

[chasmo]

Persistent famines, warfare, dire poverty, lawlessness, severe malnutrition, is what the Ethiopians have to deal with, yet Ethiopians have the world's LOWEST prevalence of Parkinson's Disease.

The lowest prevalence of Parkinson's Disease in Europe is amongst the Bulgarian Gypsies yet they have the greatest amount of stress to deal with due to their high crime rates, poverty, ill health, malnutrition, and grossly inadequate healthcare and social services.

So rather than stress being the cause of Parkinson's Disease, stress merely exacerbates Parkinson's Disease symptoms.


remember that the average Ethiopian's life span is 40-odd years and I would guess that the gypsies have a shorter average life span too. Do you think that their incidence of PD would be more in line with the rest of the population if they lived longer??
I'd have to say ANY incidence of PD in these two groups would raise a red flag for me.

Charlie

[Daffy Duck]

remember that the average Ethiopian's life span is 40-odd years and I would guess that the gypsies have a shorter average life span too. Do you think that their incidence of PD would be more in line with the rest of the population if they lived longer??
I'd have to say ANY incidence of PD in these two groups would raise a red flag for me.

Charlie

It's hard to know with Ethiopia. However, the Bulgarian Gypsy's life expectancy is not much less than that of other Bulgarians. Yet their prevalence of Parkinson's Disease is only one tenth of that of other Bulgarians despite the far easier lifestyle that other Bulgarians have.

The life expectancy in Korea is quite high. Korea has been subjected to harsh dictatorship and famines in the North, military dictatorships and constant threat of war in the South. Yet Korea's prevalence of Parkinson's Disease is not much above that of Ethiopia.

The Faeroe Islands has almost the highest prevalence of Parkinson's Disease in Europe and the World, yet is certainly not renowned for its high stress levels, or high incidence of stress related disorders.

[reverett123]

I think the article on Gould's work can take care of itself.

Oh, darn it, I can't help myself....:D
But first the idea is not that stress is the cause. Rather it is that stress is ONE of several factors. As the article makes clear, elevated cortisol prevents repair of the brain. As the work of others has shown, PWP have chronic elevated cortisol levels. Add in prenatal endotoxins and you pick up a lowered density of neurons in the substantia nigra and microglial activation destroying what neurons we have. Mix in a little rotenone or mercury with a bit more endotoxin for potentiation and more cell loss. And the stress response keeps the repair systems impotent.

It is true that stressed populations don't all develop PD. But it is also true that PD populations show unique stress profiles in both childhood experience and adult reaction. In fact, it seems that the stress vulnerability is one of the key features of PD, even though the current model barely recognizes it. In our own little community, 80% reported high stress childhoods. Stress knocks our legs out from under us daily. The Amsterdam poll of 500 last year showed stress response as the second most bothersome aspect of PD.

What other part of our symptoms are so much our own? Movement problems can be a result of half a dozen conditions as can cognitive and so on. But I haven't run across any other disorder where trying to get to a ringing phone in time can render the victim temporarily helpless.

As to the dopamine/acetylcholine theory, that is quickly becoming history. It is simply the ending symptom of the longer chain described above with added links for inflammation, toxins, BBB disruption, autoimmune factors, and others. Langston's paper "More Than a Movement Disorder" and P.M. Carvey's work on multiple factors and the NIH sponsored work of Liu Bin on inflammation are the current state of the art.

Anomolies abound, but it isn't like the earlier explanations had none. Nor is stress's role as villain a big surprise. Heck, it is killing half of western society.

And while I don't want to get into a game of "my citation is bigger than your citation," I wonder about Daffy's statement about enzyme levels and stress.

As to l-dopa and adrenaline- Adrenaline is at the heart of the stress response, but simply having a precursor present does not mean the body is going to start pumping it out. However, having a plentiful supply once the response is triggered could explain why some researchers see l-dopa as a mixed blessing in the long haul. Does it feed the flames?

The Facts are: that stress plays a role from the womb to the grave and that different people react differently to it. Chronic stress differs from acute. Other factors are present in a contributory role. And so on.

If you haven't done so, read the paper at the start of this. These are major league researchers. And their theories cured a PD rat in five weeks.

Now all that being said, I am going to try hard to ignore the sound of quacking so as to preserve the peace of the community.

[Daffy Duck]

The primary problem in Parkinson's Disease is insufficient dopamine. Stress can at most exploit low dopamine levels by exacerbating symptoms. However, it can not in itself reduce dopamine levels in the dopaminergic neurons.

This can be verified by checking the enzyme studies for the two enzymes involved in dopamine formation (tyrosine 3-monooxygenase and L-aromatic amno acid decarboxylase). Their activity has been found not to be regulated by stress via adrenaline levels.

The intereraction between acteylcholine and dopamine regulating muscle contraction certainly isn't history. It's biochemical fact. That is why the major drug types for Parkinson's Disease are based on this fact by being either dopaminergic or anti-cholinergic.

If you ask most people whether they had stress during their childhood they will say yes. Those with Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, Epilepsy, Diabetes, the Common Cold, just about anyone. That doesn't mean that stress causes them.

For a sceintific theory to be correct, it must be consistent with the facts. Stress causing Parkinson's Disease simply doesn't do that. Stress at most can merely exacerbate Parkinson's Disease symptoms when Parkinson's Disease already exists.

[JACKMANA]

If there was any one attributable cause of PD it would have been identified & addressed by now. We're all different & have our own histories, sensitivities & tolerances.
I do believe stress may trigger or exacerbate PD & almost any other health condition. The more objective line of diagnosis is logical to me (graduate Biologist & Education many yrs ago).
I had a happy, relatively stress-free childhood in industrial East Manchester UK. I believe I am a victim of organo-phosphate poisoning having married a farmer in the 70s.
I manage PD using all available approaches - conventional medicine/therapy, Yoga, acupuncture, relaxation, visualisation etc.
Hint of the day:
"There's more to life than Parkinson's"
Angela :hug:

[reverett123]

There are people reading this who are newly diagnosed and hanging on to the high stress life that is killing them. There are those of us who are further along who could benefit greatly from knowing of the work cited.

[Daffy Duck]

My hovercraft is full of eels.

[ol'cs]

.... On this one. Every human being is stressed out. Life is not easy for anyone, monied or not, there is a dearth of confidence in everyone's mind. We all have to worry about the future, and life is so short, we don't have a lot of time to "succeed".
PD is a physiological disease, and my own particular knowledge of biochemistry (no big ego here, please, i'm not in this to look like i know something that i don't) is vast, and I totally agree with KB that PD is an enzymatic loss of function, with a lot of secondary metabolic functional screw ups that we don't have a handle on yet, simply due to the complexity of the systems that we are dealing with. One day we will understand what REALLY causes PD. I don't think that we are close yet, because secondary messenger systems are a lot more mysterious than primary ones. IF it was as simple as primary biosynthesis of neurotransmitter synthesis, than l-dopa would work better for a longer time. There are changes that occur in many of the "support systems" and "cascade results" of the dopamine and other catecholamine neurotransmitters (as well as closely related neurotransmitters) that lumped together result in "Parkinsonism".
The final cure for PD lies in the understanding of the etiology of these complex changes and the prevention of them from ever occurring. Thus, those of us who have PD now, will never be cured; it is the next generations of people predisposed to PD that will be found to exhibit these changes, long before they manifest themselves as an obvious problem. Thus the cure lies in prevention rather than treatment of the already advanced state of disease recognition. cs

[vlhperry]

Tevia, in the musical, "Fiddler in the Roof," proclaims of his older daughter's marriage to a tailor, "they're so happy they do not know how miserable they are!" The Bulgarian gypsies have chosen to practice their customs because they are unaware of a better life out there, as their government allows no information to be exchanged with the outside world. I also like Charlie's comment, about their life expectancy.

Should I start making jello?

Vicky

[CTenaLouise]

Stressful event kills brain cells

A single episode of severe stress can be enough to kill off new nerve cells in the brain, research suggests.
Rosalind Franklin University researchers believe their finding may give new insights into the development of depression.

Working on rats, they found that cells were lost in the hippocampus, an area of the brain which processes learning, memory and emotion.

The study features in the Journal of Neuroscience.


We want to determine if anti-depressant medications might be able to keep these vulnerable new neurons alive
Dr Daniel Peterson
Rosalind Franklin University

The researchers found that in young rats, the stress of encountering aggressive, older rats did not stop the generation of new nerve cells in the hippocampus.

However, it did prevent the cells from surviving - leaving fewer new neurons for processing feelings and emotions.

The hippocampus is one of two regions of the brain that continues to develop new nerve cells throughout life, in both rats and humans.

Treatment hope

The researchers believe the loss of cells could be one cause of depression.

However, their work also raises hope of possible treatments to stop acute stress from contributing to mood problems.

They found that cells tended to die not immediately following a stressful situation, but after a delay of 24 hours or more.

In principle, they argue it could eventually be possible to administer treatment during this time to prevent cells being lost.

The researchers put each young rat in a cage with two older rats for 20 minutes.

The older rats quickly pinned down, and in many cases, bit the intruder.

The young rats had stress hormone levels six times as high as those who were not caged with older animals.

Microscope analysis

However, microscopic analysis of brain tissue showed that their ability to generate new cells in the hippocampus remained undimmed.


The rule of thumb seems to be; a little stress is good for you but severe/unpredictable stress is bad
Professor David Kendall
University of Nottingham

This seemed to disprove a previous theory that stress hormones put a brake on the generation of new cells.

A week after the encounter, however, only a third of the new cells had survived.

Long-term survival of nerve cells was also compromised.

In another part of their study, the researchers marked newborn cells in the hippocampus, and subjected rats to stress a week later.

At the end of the month they counted a third fewer fully developed nerve cells.

Lead researcher Dr Daniel Peterson said the next step was to understand how stress reduced cell survival.

Mixed results

Professor David Kendall, from the University of Nottingham, said previous research had shown that longer-term, unpredictable mild stress could depress nerve cell generation in the hippocampus.

That study suggested the key seemed to be a reduction in production of a hormone that helps keep brain cells alive.

However, Professor Kendall said there was also evidence to suggest that mild stress could be protective.

"You might remember the issue of London cabbies allegedly having bigger hippocampi related to the stress of acquiring "The Knowledge".

"The rule of thumb seems to be; a little stress is good for you but severe/unpredictable stress is bad."

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/health/6442001.stm

Published: 2007/03/14 00:50:47 GMT

© BBC MMVII

one more link - is stress the missing link that starts illness?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4216732.stm

[vlhperry]

TThere are people reading this who are newly diagnosed and hanging on to the high stress life that is killing them. There are those of us who are further along who could benefit greatly from knowing of the work cited.

I did the search but their could be several *********in the world. How can one be sure it is the Daffy Duck, Moderators, I have sent a private e-mail requesting that thought be given to putting a halt to the personal fighting going on on this thread. Rick, are you entitled to smear a forum member by revealing their identity? Daffy Duck do you have to take a discussion of another view as a personal attack? Time to put this thread to rest. It is getting way to personal.

Vicky

[Daffy Duck]

Vicky, when somebody abandons the issue due to running out of evidence and instead attempts to falsely criticise the person they disagree with, then it can only be assumed to be a personal attack.

[kimmydawn]

There have been some personal attack due to strong opinion on this thread. It's been removed.

Please keep responses to the orginal topic *without flaming another*.

If you have a personal issue with another member's comments on the thread, please send a PM.

Thanks!

KD

[pdinfo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9MY0bbO0qw

[Teretxu]

If stress was the REAL cause of Parkinson's Disease, then the most stressed of people would have Parkinson's Disease but they don't.

Persistent famines, warfare, dire poverty, lawlessness, severe malnutrition, is what the Ethiopians have to deal with, yet Ethiopians have the world's LOWEST prevalence of Parkinson's Disease.

The lowest prevalence of Parkinson's Disease in Europe is amongst the Bulgarian Gypsies yet they have the greatest amount of stress to deal with due to their high crime rates, poverty, ill health, malnutrition, and grossly inadequate healthcare and social services.

The biochemical fault that has persistently been found to coincide with Parkinson's Disease is the low levels of the enzymes required for the formation of dopamine. Stress does not affect these enzyme levels at all.

L-dopa can potently relieve symptoms of Parkinson's Disease due to its ability to form dopamine. Due to also being the precursor of adrenaline, L-dopa has the capacity to increase stress. If the theory was right L-dopa would increase symptoms, but it does the opposite.

So the claim that stress is the REAL cause of Parkinson's Disease is plainly inconsistent with the facts.

Acetylcholine increases muscle contraction. Dopamine reduces muscle contraction. Parkinson's Disease occurs when there is not enough dopamine to counter the effect of increased muscle contraction.

The reason why there appears to be a coincidence between stress and Parkinsons' Disease symptoms is that when somebody is stressed they produce adrenaline. Adrenaline increases the effect of acetylcholine and thereby temporarily increases Parkinson's Disease symptoms due to increasing muscle contraction.

So rather than stress being the cause of Parkinson's Disease, stress merely exacerbates Parkinson's Disease symptoms.

Daffy, I don't know about Ethiopians, but I do know about gypsies, and let me tell you: they are the world's leaststressed out community!!! There's no way in the world a gypsy will get PD if the cause is stress. They follow no one's rules but their own, to the point that many do not send their kids to school, because they have to get up so early. I have a friend who's an elementary school teacher in a part of town with a large gypsy population and the average absentee rate is above 60%. At the beginning she tried to pick up the smaller kids at home and drive them to school herself, but she soon gave up when the mothers very politely and tenderly assured her that getting up at 8 o'clock was too soon for the little ones. You will find many playgrounds full of gypsy children during school hours, who run off when they see the Police approaching (school attendance is mandatory for everyone's children under 16). I'm not judging anybody, just telling it like it is, and having said this, I believe gypsies are right in their vital attitudes, only today's Society will cast out anyone who doesn't play by the rules. So, you either bend or break...only trouble is that you can also break from bending too much!

[Daffy Duck]

Follow no one's rules but their own. Don't like getting up early. Never stressed. Think that school's a waste of time.

I reckon I must have Gypsy ancestry. :p

[aftermathman]

and see them every day, (not Bulgarian gypsys I grant you).

They live in and around Evesham due to the high amount of agricultural work on offer.

Given the relationship between PD and pesticides, agricultural insecticides, etc, shouldn't gypsy PD incidence be high ?

Daffy, given your last comments re. gypsys, I hope you are not planning to get a new drive anytime soon.

Neil.

[reverett123]

1: Leuner B, Mirescu C, Noiman L, Gould E.
Maternal experience inhibits the production of immature neurons in the
hippocampus during the postpartum period through elevations in adrenal steroids.
Hippocampus. 2007 Mar 30;17(6):434-442 [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 17397044 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

2: Mirescu C, Peters JD, Noiman L, Gould E.
Sleep deprivation inhibits adult neurogenesis in the hippocampus by elevating
glucocorticoids.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 Dec 12;103(50):19170-5. Epub 2006 Nov 29.
PMID: 17135354 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3: Stranahan AM, Khalil D, Gould E.
Social isolation delays the positive effects of running on adult neurogenesis.
Nat Neurosci. 2006 Apr;9(4):526-33. Epub 2006 Mar 12.
PMID: 16531997 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4: Mirescu C, Gould E.
Stress and adult neurogenesis.
Hippocampus. 2006;16(3):233-8. Review.
PMID: 16411244 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

5: Kozorovitskiy Y, Gould E.
Dominance hierarchy influences adult neurogenesis in the dentate gyrus.
J Neurosci. 2004 Jul 28;24(30):6755-9.
PMID: 15282279 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

6: Mirescu C, Peters JD, Gould E.
Early life experience alters response of adult neurogenesis to stress.
Nat Neurosci. 2004 Aug;7(8):841-6. Epub 2004 Jul 25.
PMID: 15273691 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

7: Coe CL, Kramer M, Czeh B, Gould E, Reeves AJ, Kirschbaum C, Fuchs E.
Prenatal stress diminishes neurogenesis in the dentate gyrus of juvenile rhesus
monkeys.
Biol Psychiatry. 2003 Nov 15;54(10):1025-34.
PMID: 14625144 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

8: Kozorovitskiy Y, Gould E.
Adult neurogenesis: a mechanism for brain repair?
J Clin Exp Neuropsychol. 2003 Aug;25(5):721-32. Review.
PMID: 12815508 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[rosebud]

Stress is relative...it's not what happens to us, but how we respond. There is clearly an element of individuality that plays a key role. The central questions in my mind are: who are we really? What is the meaning of life? I feel like I suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and life would have been a whole lot more do-able if I were made out of rubber! (the really hard Indian kind that those balls we had as kids were made of...they bounced like crazy!) ...well the girls had them anyway. I personally, am highly suspicious of the PD label. But not having had any other serious illness, I don't know that I wouldn't have the same suspicious attitude toward whatever dis-ease was upon me. "Like seeing through a glass darkly" ....love that phrase Paul uses to describe this life. Oh, I've used up my 2 cents...damn! I was just getting started! :D

[vlhperry]

When cortisal rises and genetic mutations can be found in the Parkin gene you bet we are affected by stress. Many of us probably respond by trying to control how we react to stress by not exposing it by losing our temper, but because we practice self control, cortisal levels do not fall and Parkin mutations do not disappear. call it what you want, but the stress does phsyciologically exist.

My two cents,
Vicky

[Ibken]

I agree with Rosebud. It's not the stress - or any other contributing factor per se, but in how the individual responds to it. In Ayurveda, PD is considered a Vata disorder. My type is mainly Vata. There are lots of sites that provide little quizzes to determine your Dosha - type. And there are lots of other ways of classing bio-whatever types.

Whatever creates the huge unrelenting demand for dopamine in our bodies is the 'cause' of PD . After a while we can't keep up with the demand as it eventually exceeds our capacity to supply it....voila! symptoms! Physical trauma, emotional issues, stress of any & all kinds, illness, mean people, dirtry air, war, etc, ...

There are a lot of ways out there to help with all these things...and I am always on the lookout.

WE need a pd motel where we can meet and figure it all out and get some healing herapies while we're there. Really. There needs to be a PD Patient Healing :) Gathering Place.....

Sweet Dreams...Ibby

[reverett123]

...is that Gould's work shows not simply a causal relationship. The exciting part is that she has found that stress also blocks the body's repair capabilities and that once the stress is removed those repair systems are still operable. How far this might go remains to be seen, but ten years ago it was impossible for the brain to do any repair, at least according to the dogma of the day. Gould was the one who showed otherwise. Heck, she's not even a neurologist.

[Daffy Duck]

...is that Gould's work shows not simply a causal relationship. The exciting part is that she has found that stress also blocks the body's repair capabilities and that once the stress is removed those repair systems are still operable. How far this might go remains to be seen, but ten years ago it was impossible for the brain to do any repair, at least according to the dogma of the day. Gould was the one who showed otherwise. Heck, she's not even a neurologist.

Gould writes about stress and she writes about Parkinson's Disease, but there is no evidence at all contained in what she has written that demonstrates that stress causes Parkinson's Disease :

http://seedmagazine.com/news/2006/02...p?page=all&p=y

Virtually all cells can reproduce in adults. Only four of them can't. One of them is the dopaminergic neurons, the cells involved in Parkinson's Disease. So "neurogenesis" (cell reproduction) is completely irrelevant to Parkinson's Disease because the cells involved in Parkinson's Disease never reproduce.

Nearly all types of "Brain cells" can reproduce, but the dopaminergic neurons isn't one of them. Because dopaminergic neurons are brain cells she has wrongly assumed that all brain cells reproduce, not realising that dopaminergic neurons don't.

[reverett123]

whether to believe in highly stressed gypsies or devil may care gypsies.

Bob Dylan was quoted earlier. Another one of his might be apropo. I don't have the lyrics handy but I believe the title to be "You've Got to Serve Somebody." It's about making choices.

[Daffy Duck]

When a medical theory does not have a sound scientific basis, has no evidence in support of it, and is inconsistent with all known facts, there is nothing to choose from.

[vlhperry]

Gould writes about stress and she writes about Parkinson's Disease, but there is no evidence at all contained in what she has written that demonstrates that stress causes Parkinson's Disease :

http://seedmagazine.com/news/2006/02...p?page=all&p=y

Virtually all cells can reproduce in adults. Only four of them can't. One of them is the dopaminergic neurons, the cells involved in Parkinson's Disease. So "neurogenesis" (cell reproduction) is completely irrelevant to Parkinson's Disease because the cells involved in Parkinson's Disease never reproduce.

Nearly all types of "Brain cells" can reproduce, but the dopaminergic neurons isn't one of them. Because dopaminergic neurons are brain cells she has wrongly assumed that all brain cells reproduce, not realising that dopaminergic neurons don't.

Mr. Daffy Duck,

You have very selective hearing. Rick has repeatedly explained that the dopamine producing neurons ane not the cause. It is only a part of the process. You have a very simplistic understanding of the human brain. The first question is why did the dopamine producing neurons become destroyed in the first place. Your theory argues starting at the point after the neurons have been destroyed amd insist that they cannot be reproduced.

Rick addresses what destroyed the neurons. He traces backword and has found that cortisol destroys neurol proteins that are overproduced causing protein tangles in the brain that block the paths that lead to blockage of the tunnels that deliver the dopamine to the various muscle groups throughout the body. Rick has found your theory to be false and backs it up from professional, well known journals.

I have two mutations in my Parkin2 gene. I have an MRI that shows the protein tangles causing organic personality syndrome. The dopamine cannot be uptaken by the striatum, the dopamine neurons get the message that it is producing too much dopamine and begins self destruction of the neurons. That I have proof of in the form of an Fdopa PET scan.

The chemical analysis you have made of Parkinson's disease may be irrefutable, many scientist have agreed with you for years. But replacing the dopamine with a synthetic form has not improved the Parkinson's patient quality of life long term. There is a reason why and new theories must be researched. Rick, by following the point of the dead dopanine backwords to find where the process starts to go wrong is more systematic than trying to replace or compensate for the loss of dopamine. It has been 40 years and billions of dollars of research money attempting to prove your theory. You said you found the answer and offered it to people on this site by giving your private e-mail address. I took you up on your offer on condition that it be an open patent. Either you won't risk the disproving of your theory, of you are looking to make millions by patenting it. I question your motives based on these facts.

Rick has listed his scientific sources at your request. You choose to ignore his attempt to defend, fairly, his theory by answering your demands for his sources, rather than attempting to disprove his sources. You post a link that doesn't work to prove your theory. The name of your source, "Seed Magazine" does not sound like a human biological journal, so I see no bearing on this discussion.

Sincerely,
Vicky

[Daffy Duck]

The suggestion that the dopaminergic neurons is not the primary fault in Parkinson's Disease is the primary fault in the theory. There are a number of causes of Parkinson's Disease and a number of ways it can manifest itself, but insufficient dopaminergic activity is common to all of them.

I certainly don't have, as you have claimed, a simplistic knowledge of the brain. Over a period of more than ten years I wrote up twenty volumes of human biochemistry. This included the structure, reproduction and function of every single cell type in the nervous system, all of which I have detailed in what I have written.

You claim that I have argued that the starting point is after the neurons have been destroyed amd insist that they cannot be reproduced. This is plainly false. I have never suggested this. The cells involved in Parkinson's Disease do not reproduce in adults. However, despite it being widely assumed, there is no published research at all demonstrating that there is massive cell loss in Parkinson's Disease. f-Dopa pet scans don't show loss of cells. They demonstrate a reduction in cell activity.

I have never suggested using a synthetic form of dopamine as you have claimed.

It has not taken forty years and billions of dollars to prove "my" theory, as you have claimed.

Firstly I am nowhere near old enough to have been researching Parkinson's Disease (or anything else) for forty years. Secondly I have never applied for or received any funding, let alone billions of dollars worth. Thirdly, I have not addressed anything on this Thread apart from the theory put forward concerning stress and Parkinson's Disease.

In correction of what you have claimed, I did not recently make an offer to you or other people on this site by giving my e-mail address. My offer was only to Rick as part of a challenge I made to him.

Rick has not listed scientific sources at my request as you have claimed. He has not provided any scientific evidence at all that proves his theory. Scientific fact plainly contradicts it. MY criticisms (apart from whether or not Gypsys are stressed !) have gone completely unanswered. He writes of "neurogenesis" when there is no "neurogenesis" in the dopaminergic neurons.

I have not quoted "Seed Magazine" in support of what I have written as you have claimed.

I have not attempted to prove "my" theory here. I have solely addressed, with scientific evdience, Rick's theory that stress causes Parkinson's Disease. If you carefully read what he has written, you will see that he gave up that claim in response to what I had written.

[reverett123]

I have underestimated your scholarly value.

"I certainly don't have, as you have claimed, a simplistic knowledge of the brain. Over a period of more than ten years I wrote up twenty volumes of human biochemistry. This included the structure, reproduction and function of every single cell type in the nervous system, all of which I have detailed in what I have written. "

I would certainly like to read them. Mind sharing the publisher?

"Firstly I am nowhere near old enough to have been researching Parkinson's Disease (or anything else) for forty years. Secondly I have never applied for or received any funding, let alone billions of dollars worth."

Oh, a fellow freelancer! And a young one at that! I can understand my own obsession, being a PWP and all. What is your motivation and educational background? Biochemistry? Physics? I admit to being a freelancer there too, having studied pschology at an underfunded state university. You?

" There are a number of causes of Parkinson's Disease and a number of ways it can manifest itself, but insufficient dopaminergic activity is common to all of them. "

Ah, a point of agreement! But...

"So "neurogenesis" (cell reproduction) is completely irrelevant to Parkinson's Disease because the cells involved in Parkinson's Disease never reproduce."

...here is where I have trouble. I assume that such a hope-crushing statement is more than opinion. Medline indicates that the ball is very much in play:

"1: J Neurochem. 2007 Feb;100(3):587-95. Epub 2006 Nov 13.

Dopamine and adult neurogenesis.

Borta A, Hoglinger GU.

Experimental Neurology, Philipps University, Marburg, Germany.

Dopamine is an important neurotransmitter implicated in the regulation of mood,
motivation and movement. We have reviewed here recent data suggesting that
dopamine, in addition to being a neurotransmitter, also plays a role in the
regulation of endogenous neurogenesis in the adult mammalian brain. In addition,
we approach a highly controversial question: can the adult human brain use
neurogenesis to replace the dopaminergic neurones in the substantia nigra that
are lost in Parkinson's disease?

PMID: 17101030 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

I vote for hope. But, then, I have Parkinson's Disease and without hope I'm a goner. Like a lot of folks, I guess.

[Daffy Duck]

The study you referred to does nothing more than ask the question as to whether dopaminergic neurons can reproduce. It provides no evidence at all in support of dopaminergic neurons reproducing in adults. It's not a controversial question at all. There is no such evidence.

When I studied every cell type, I purposefully checked to see whether mitosis ("neurogenesis" in neurons) occurred in each type, and at what ages it occurred and ceased. All cell types reproduce in humans. However, four of them do not reproduce in adults. The well known one is teeth, which cease reproducing in adults and younger. The cells involved in Parkinson's Disease (the dopaminergic neurons) are another of those four cell types well known not to reproduce. This fact is the basis for the stem cell theorists.

Looks like your other questions are again solely aimed at trying to distract attention from the issue. You're not genuinely interested in the answers. If you knew them, you'd emphatically realise that you'd have to find different means of trying to distract attention from the scientific scrutiny of your theory.

[Jo*mar]

Trying to figure out a single cause of PD?
I wonder if for some it may be caused one way, or a combined set of factors, and for another the cause/causes could be totally different.
Differing sets of life circumstances, stress, nutrition, hereditary factors and individual body chemical factors. The whole picture most likely rather than just one thing?

[Daffy Duck]

Some causes can be far more common than others. However, that there are a variety of causes is true for virtually all medical disorders.

[burckle]

Mr Duck:

Everett makes a point here although I am inclined to agree with you on most points. Would you mind posting your CV so that we might evaluate your background?

All the best

Lloyd

[girija]

Mr Duck
I am curious to know how you managed to do these experiments to get such definitive answers. Did you publish your data and if not, could you give more info> I am a biochemist and a PWP and interested in neurogenesis; Also I would love to know how you did this work without any funding.

girija


When I studied every cell type, I purposefully checked to see whether mitosis ("neurogenesis" in neurons) occurred in each type, and at what ages it occurred and ceased. All cell types reproduce in humans. However, four of them do not reproduce in adults. The well known one is teeth, which cease reproducing in adults and younger. The cells involved in Parkinson's Disease (the dopaminergic neurons) are another of those four cell types well known not to reproduce. This fact is the basis for the stem cell theorists.

[Daffy Duck]

Mr Duck:

Everett makes a point here although I am inclined to agree with you on most points. Would you mind posting your CV so that we might evaluate your background?

Lloyd

Yes sure, as long as everyone else here does the same.

[Daffy Duck]

Mr Duck
I am curious to know how you managed to do these experiments to get such definitive answers. Did you publish your data and if not, could you give more info> I am a biochemist and a PWP and interested in neurogenesis; Also I would love to know how you did this work without any funding.

girija

Girija, the answer to your first question is that I did not carry out the experiments that established that dopaminergic neurons do not reproduce in adults. It was already in the scientific literature.

In order to write a complete human biochemistry it would have been physically impossible to complete it by doing all practical work. Therefore, I did not need any of the costly equipment and physical resources that you would normally need. I compiled it by systematically going through all types of biochemical structure (vitamins, fatty acids, amino acids, etc) and then each system in the body (nervous, cardiovascular, endocrine, etc), cell by cell, using all existing research - this involved the analysis and piecing together of hundreds of thousands of books and research papers over more than ten years. I spent a further three years, virtually seven days a week, morning to night, on writing a complete biochemistry of Parkinson's Disease. I did this using the same methods. I initially used major London University libraries. Much of the time I was not actually allowed to, but managed to repeatedly trick my way in to the library Universities to do the work. When they finally caught on, and I was prevented from using all the London University libararies, I ended up solely in the British Library, which allows anyone to use their resources - even me - free of charge. The British Library staff got to know me well, and went out of their way to help me find the hundreds of thousands of books and research papers I used, despite my never telling them what I was doing. In the final months I had to ration my visits to the British Library because I could not even afford the bus fare. I had to walk much of the way to save money. When I completed the work on Parkinson's Disease I was penniless.

[annefrobert]

It is great to read all of you participating to this debate and giving your own conceptions even when with huge passion.
It changes from other subjects no one seems to understand the interest of, and it demonstrates how difficult it is for all of us to make choices when learning and avoid t get involved in new beliefs as well as to get rid of old credos.

The only goal here is to keep all the time properly informed.

Here are three articles about neurogenesis in the adult mammalian substantia nigra, all of them with full text links given.
Questions and remarks to come after.

Shan X, Chi L, Bishop M, Luo C, Lien L, Zhang Z, Liu R.
Enhanced de novo neurogenesis and dopaminergic neurogenesis in the substantia nigra of 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine-induced Parkinson's disease-like mice.
Stem Cells. 2006 May;24(5):1280-7.

Research reports on de novo neurogenesis, particularly dopaminergic (DA) neurogenesis in the adult mammalian substantia nigra (SN), remain very controversial. For this reason, we used the nestin second intron enhancer-controlled LacZ reporter transgenic mouse model coupled with the 1-methyl-4-phyenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP) lesion system to investigate whether there are neurogenesis and DA neurogenesis in the SN of the adult normal and Parkinson’s disease (PD)-like mice. First, we demonstrated the presence of neural progenitor cells (NPCs), basal levels of neurogenesis, and DA neurogenesis in the normal adult mouse SN. Second, we showed that there is not only a significant increase in the number of NPCs but also a dramatic increase of neurogenesis from the NPCs in the SN and the midline region adjacent to the SN of the PD-like mice compared with that of normal controls. More importantly, we also demonstrated that there is an increase of DA neurogenesis in the SN of the MPTP-lesioned mice. Third, we showed that the increased DA neurogenesis in the MPTP-lesioned mice was derived from the NPCs and 5-bromodeoxyuridine-positive cells, suggesting that multiple stem cell lineages may contribute to the enhanced neurogenesis in the adult SN. Taken together, these results establish that there are basal levels, albeit low, and increased levels of de novo neurogenesis and DA neurogenesis in the SN of the adult normal and PD-like mice, respectively. The increased NPCs in the MPTP-lesioned mice further suggest that experimental approaches to promote de novo neurogenesis may provide an effective therapy for PD by functional replacement of degenerated DA neurons.

full text = http://stemcells.alphamedpress.org/cgi/content/full/24/5/1280


Zhao M, Momma S, Delfani K, Carlen M, Cassidy RM, Johansson CB, Brismar H, Shupliakov O, Frisen J, Janson AM.
Evidence for neurogenesis in the adult mammalian substantia nigra.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Jun 24;100(13):7925-30.


New neurons are generated from stem cells in a few regions of the adult mammalian brain. Here we provide evidence for the generation of dopaminergic projection neurons of the type that are lost in Parkinson's disease from stem cells in the adult rodent brain and show that the rate of neurogenesis is increased after a lesion. The number of new neurons generated under physiological conditions in substantia nigra pars compacta was found to be several orders of magnitude smaller than in the granular cell layer of the dentate gyrus of the hippocampus. However, if the rate of neuronal turnover is constant, the entire population of dopaminergic neurons in substantia nigra could be replaced during the lifespan of a mouse. These data indicate that neurogenesis in the adult brain is more widespread than previously thought and may have implications for our understanding of the pathogenesis and treatment of neurodegenerative disorders such as Parkinson's disease.

Full text = http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/100/13/7925



Borta A, Hoglinger GU.
Dopamine and adult neurogenesis.
J Neurochem. 2007 Feb;100(3):587-95.

Dopamine is an important neurotransmitter implicated in the regulation of mood, motivation and movement. We have reviewed here recent data suggesting that dopamine, in addition to being a neurotransmitter, also plays a role in the regulation of endogenous neurogenesis in the adult mammalian brain. In addition, we approach a highly controversial question: can the adult human brain use neurogenesis to replace the dopaminergic neurones in the substantia nigra that are lost in Parkinson's disease?

Full text = http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/action/showPdf?submitPDF=Full+Text+PDF+%28681+KB%29&doi=10.1111%2Fj.1471-4159.2006.04241.x&cookieSet=1

[CTenaLouise]

Neurogenesis - Changing your mind:

During most of the 20th century,

leading scientists theorized that brain cells didn’t divide like other cells in the body. It was generally understood that neurons could not be added to the brain after earliest childhood. A respected proponent of this theory was Pasko Rakic, chairman of the Neurobiology Department at Yale University, whose research in the early 1980s concluded that no new neurons were being formed in the brains of adult primates.

However, in light of recent research, many neuroscientists (including Rakic) have had, shall we say, a change of mind.

“I think the fact that there are so many neurons that are produced . . . suggests that they must play some important function, because it wouldn’t make sense for the brain to expend so much energy to make these new cells if they’re not going to be used.”

—Elizabeth Gould at the 2002 Annual Convention of the American Psychological Association, quoted in APA's Monitor on Psychology, November 2002




By studying the detrimental effects of chronic stress on the brains of rats and primates, Princeton University psychology professor Elizabeth Gould has observed inexplicable evidence of the brain’s capacity to heal itself by the creation of new neurons—a process called neurogenesis.

Gould has demonstrated that the brain’s mechanisms are affected by its surroundings. Jonah Lehrer, highlighting Gould’s work in an article for the February-March 2006 issue of Seed magazine titled “The Reinvention of the Self,” uses the term “environ-mental conditions.” He describes Gould’s discoveries: “The structure of our brain, from the details of our dendrites to the density of our hippocampus, is incredibly influenced by our surroundings. Put a primate under stressful conditions, and its brain begins to starve. It stops creating new cells. The cells it already has retreat inwards. The mind is disfigured.”

If the brain structure is hurt by stressful or negative “environ-mental” conditions, can its functions be helped, even healed, by positive “environ-mental” forces? As Lehrer points out, the social implications of this cutting-edge study of neurogenesis are enormous.

THE SCIENCE OF DEPRESSION

Ronald Duman, professor of psychiatry and pharmacology at Yale University and an expert on depression, studies the molecular and cellular changes caused by stress as well as by the use of antidepressants. In a 2001 report published in the Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, he, too, concluded that “decreased rates of cell proliferation are seen in response to stress.” He also noted that “drugs, as well as hormones and growth factors, can regulate the rate of cell proliferation.”

But he questioned whether a shortage of serotonin is the root cause of depression—an assumption that underlies the science behind antidepressant drugs. In an article titled “Antidepressants and Neuroplasticity” in the June 2002 issue of the journal Bipolar Disorders, Duman and colleague Carrol D’Sa proposed that, based on their studies, the reason antidepressants work is not because they cause a surge in serotonin (which should, but doesn’t, result in an immediate lessening of the symptoms of depression) but because they promote the production of trophic factors, proteins that lead to neurogenesis. In other words, by encouraging new cell growth, the drugs enhance the brain’s plasticity, or ability to adapt and thus cope.

Duman’s research is causing a change in the way neuroscience views depression. It has also led to further studies linking neurogenesis, depression and stress. In one study, Gould and her team deprived newborn rats of their mothers for either 15 minutes or three hours a day, placing a high level of stress on the infant rodents. Of those who were separated for the longer period, they reported: “Our results suggest that early adverse experience inhibits structural plasticity . . . and diminishes the ability of the hippocampus to respond to stress in adulthood” (Nature Neuroscience, August 2004). In other words, the rats never recovered their ability to deal with high levels of stress—in this case the early absence of their mother. Chronic stress debilitates dendrites, inhibits cell production and causes atrophy of the hippocampus, a part of the brain essential for learning and memory and also implicated in mood disorders, whereas access to a nurturing adult contributed directly to the development of healthy brain structure and function.

Lehrer remarks that “neurogenesis is an optimistic idea.” But Gould’s team, having demonstrated that deprivation and stress have negative and long-lasting consequences, is now showing that “the brain, like skin, can heal itself.” Lehrer goes on to note that Gould is “finding hopeful antidotes to neurogenesis-inhibiting injuries. ‘My hunch is that a lot of these abnormalities [caused by stress] can be fixed in adulthood,’ she says. ‘I think that there’s a lot of evidence for the resiliency of the brain.’”

MAKING THE CONNECTION

In another study, Gould and her coworkers studied the brains of adult marmosets. Some of the animals were housed in large enclosures that featured natural vegetation and encouraged foraging. Others were kept in standard laboratory cages. When the team compared the brains of animals from each group, they reported finding “dramatic differences in structural plasticity.” The marmosets that were used to the more complex environments were found not only to have more connections between neurons but also to experience a higher rate of neurogenesis than the ones that were kept in stark lab cages. When the caged animals were transferred from their bleak environment to the more natural, enriched setting, they responded with changes in their brain chemistry: the rate of new cell growth in their brains increased.

Much remains to be discovered as researchers continue their studies in this fascinating field. But if various kinds of deprivation can be shown to cause deterioration in the dendrites of the brain, wouldn’t an environment that is enriched by kindness, caring and love also contribute to the construction or regeneration of a healthy brain?

Are we not discovering that we can literally change our minds? Neuroscience may be stumbling across some spiritual truths; the positive power of love and concern that the Creator God intended us to experience and exemplify could actually regenerate the human brain.

Consider in addition that the Hebrew Scriptures and Apostolic Writings are replete with calls for individuals to repent of their harmful attitudes and actions. Do repentant people experience both physical and spiritual benefits from changing their ways?

That certainly appears to be Paul’s message when he writes in Romans 12:2
that we should “be transformed by the renewing of [our] mind”!

THOMAS E. FITZPATRICK
thomas.fitzpatrick@visionjournal.org

[CTenaLouise]

http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v8/n3/abs/nrn2054.html;jsessionid=9E0F72CDA2D2E7BA0BF4E139DE 7FDA43

Nature Reviews Neuroscience 8, 221-232 (March 2007) | doi:10.1038/nrn2054

The neuropoietic cytokine family in development, plasticity, disease and injury
Sylvian Bauer1,2, Bradley J. Kerr2,3 and Paul H. Patterson4 About the authors

Top of page
Abstract

Neuropoietic cytokines are well known for their role in the control of neuronal, glial and immune responses to injury or disease. Since this discovery, it has emerged that several of these proteins are also involved in nervous system development, in particular in the regulation of neurogenesis and stem cell fate. Recent data indicate that these proteins have yet more functions, as key modulators of synaptic plasticity and of various behaviours. In addition, neuropoietic cytokines might be a factor in the aetiology of psychiatric disorders.

[annefrobert]

Mr Daffy Duck,

I have many questions to ask you, and not to loose anyone's time, here is my very first one
" Who are you really as a person, most probably totally different from Duffy Duck , this poor little black duck you are hiding behind, described by the Warner Bros as a "maniac, explosive, and unpredictable self-analytical, competitive, peevish, paranoid, and neurotic personality?"
I do not believe one second you may be like him, in no way.
http://looneytunes.warnerbros.com/web/stars/stars_daffy.jsp
(Please excuse my poor english, not my maternal tongue, I am trying to say things the better, and the way I feel them so I do hope you will be indulgent to me).

Your demonstration of how rough and tough scientists may be toward anyone who dares to have any idea or use other words and manners than the traditional ones to present them is fantastic one, a lesson to youngers. I wonder if you have not suffered of any exclusion because of your own ideas in other places at other times....
Anyhow, you have totally convinced me that you are far the best here to judge amateur works like ours .........so the best one too to be able to make them climb steps to be professional-like and so valuable enough to be then discussed in any very strict-minded assembly.

Even when the first impression you have reported did not look like an encouraging one, ("When a medical theory does not have a sound scientific basis, has no evidence in support of it, and is inconsistent with all known facts, there is nothing to choose from".), I am sure you are not on Neurotalks for any other reason than to serve and to give your help somewhere, at least enough to ask you now my second request,
"Would you agree for exchanging points of view on personal e-mails? I would be honoured and pleased if you accept to share few hours "pour la bonne cause"."

Day has come yet and sun is raising.
It is so late for me , here in Lyon, to go on writing; I need to rest at leasr for a while, (btw, are you a PwP's yourself, Mr DD?) but will come tomorrow afternoon to argue and give complete references about the neuropathological works of Braak, Jellinger, Wakabayashi, Takahashi and many others (see below) as well as about a very recent publication of A.E Lang, the first one to integrate these data in etiopathogenic works.

A.E.LANG
The progression of Parkinson disease: a hypothesis.
Neurology. 2007 Mar 20;68(12):948-52.


" Here are some lines about Braak's neuropathological classification has clarified the true extent of illness in brain, characterized by a uniform propagation in six different stages pattern for IPD process spreading.through body and brain following a specific route.

Though neuropathology studies have described the whole course of the spreading process more than a decade ago and despite it has been settled that “there are no cases of PD in which neurodegeneration occurs only in the substantia nigra and in which there are no Lewy Bodies*” [* = Wakabayashi & Takahashi -Parkinsonism Relat Disord. 2005 Jun;11 Suppl 1:S31-7) ], most scientific works and related publications are and remain ignorant of these data, still focuse upon SNpc involvement and keep asserting the common though appearingly erroneous belief that the PD underlying process starts in SNpc, that SNpc is the initial area to be damaged in PD .


Such a focus upon dopaminergic neurons and related motor impairments has been the rule since almost the beginning of PD history and remains, in most works, the strongest consideration.
However, as far as thirty years ago, in 1976, Ohama has demonstrated with the histochemical fluorescence method upon rats brain, that the distribution of Lewy bodies in Parkinson's disease correspond, surprisingly well, to the one of monoamine cell bodies (dopamine, noradrenaline and serotonin) .

Since then, it has been wiedly proven that Lewy bodies are to be found elsewhere in brain than in SNpc and out of brain too.
- In ganglion cells of the colonic myenteric plexus, Kupsky W.J, 1987
- Widely in the Auerbach's and Meissner's plexuses (stomach) , Wakabayashi, 1989
- Degeneration of the preganglionic parasympathetic neurons innervating the internal **** sphincter , Oyanagi K., 1990
- Dorsal vagal nucleus and sympathetic ganglia , Gibbs W.R, 1991
- Sympathetic ganglia, enteric nervous system of the alimentary tract and the submandibular ganglion, Takeda S., 1993
- Widely distributed in the hypothalamus, sympathetic system (intermediolateral nucleus of the thoracic cord and sympathetic ganglia) and parasympathetic system (dorsal vagal and sacral parasympathetic nuclei) and in the enteric nervous system of the alimentary tract, cardiac plexus, pelvic plexus and adrenal medulla. Wakabayashi, 1997

Giving a major contribution to knowledge and understandings about PD, the neuropathology works of H. Braak & E. Braak have clearly described since 1996 the pattern of brain destruction to be a systematically hierarchised spreading one as first starting in stomach wall, DMNX (dorsal motor nucleus nervus vagus) and OB (olfactory bulb)……

(Pattern of brain destruction in Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases, Braak & Braak, 1996;
Staging of the intracerebral inclusion body pathology associated with idiopathic Parkinson's disease : preclinical and clinical stages,Braak, 2002
Gastric alpha-synuclein immunoreactive inclusions in Meissner's and Auerbach's plexuses in cases staged for Parkinson's disease-related brain pathology, Braak, 2006.)

At last, other works have largely confirm Braak's staging of LB-pathology in PD and added other considerations to the initial pattern with different morphological lesion patterns for the clinical subtypes of PD (Jellinger K.A).

a) The akinetic-rigid type shows more severe cell loss in the ventrolateral part of substantia nigra zona compacta (SNZC) that projects to the dorsal putamen than the medial part projecting to caudate nucleus and anterior putamen, with negative correlation between SNZC cell counts, severity of akinesia-rigidity, and dopamine loss in the posterior putamen. Reduced dopaminergic input causes overactivity of the GABA ergic inhibitory striatal neurons projecting via the "indirect loop" to SN zona reticulata (SNZR) and medial pallidum (GPI) leading to inhibition of the glutamatergic thalamo-cortical motor loop and reduced cortical activation.

b) The tremor-dominant type shows more severe neuron loss in medial than in lateral SNZC and damage to the retrorubral field A8 containing only few tyrosine hydroxylase and dopamine transporter immunoreactive (IR) neurons but mainly calretinin-IR cells. A8 that is rather preserved in rigid-akinetic PD (protective role of calcium-binding protein?) projects to the matrix of dorsolateral striatum and ventromedial thalamus. Together with area A10 it influences the strial efflux via SNZR to thalamus and from there to prefrontal cortex ".


Last words and I'll fall asleep on my keyboard :
We are fighting neither for THE TRUTH nor for the GLORY of Science but for OUR TRUTH that is to ameliorate our quality of life.
Please, give everything to have hearts as rigourous as minds, and Never forget that " On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur; l'essentiel est invisible aux yeux." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

(It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye)
Anne.

[vlhperry]

Dear Ann,
I have two mutations of my Parkin2 gene, deletion of exxons 3, and 5.
Can you explain how this plays into the currect studies?

Sincerely,
Vicky

[Teretxu]

Thanks Anne, that was excellent!

[Daffy Duck]

[COLOR="Navy"]
Mr Daffy Duck,

I have many questions to ask you, and not to loose anyone's time, here is my very first one
" Who are you really as a person, most probably totally different from Duffy Duck , this poor little black duck you are hiding behind, described by the Warner Bros as a "maniac, explosive, and unpredictable self-analytical, competitive, peevish, paranoid, and neurotic personality?"
I do not believe one second you may be like him, in no way.
http://looneytunes.warnerbros.com/web/stars/stars_daffy.jsp
(Please excuse my poor english, not my maternal tongue, I am trying to say things the better, and the way I feel them so I do hope you will be indulgent to me).

Your demonstration of how rough and tough scientists may be toward anyone who dares to have any idea or use other words and manners than the traditional ones to present them is fantastic one, a lesson to youngers. I wonder if you have not suffered of any exclusion because of your own ideas in other places at other times....
Anyhow, you have totally convinced me that you are far the best here to judge amateur works like ours .........so the best one too to be able to make them climb steps to be professional-like and so valuable enough to be then discussed in any very strict-minded assembly.

Even when the first impression you have reported did not look like an encouraging one, ("When a medical theory does not have a sound scientific basis, has no evidence in support of it, and is inconsistent with all known facts, there is nothing to choose from".), I am sure you are not on Neurotalks for any other reason than to serve and to give your help somewhere, at least enough to ask you now my second request,
"Would you agree for exchanging points of view on personal e-mails? I would be honoured and pleased if you accept to share few hours "pour la bonne cause"."

Anne, to be honest, between you and me, I do not actually have black feathers, a beak and webbed feet. Don't let anyone know, because I think I've got a few people here convinced that I do.

My approach to scientific analysis may seem harsh, but you have to be harsh when researching medicine. You have to have a thorough and almost obsessive knowledge of the subject you're studying. You then have to be sceptical about nearly everything you read. False, misleading or useless claims are made habitually in the scientific literature. Something isn't merely true or false. You have to ask is it true in the long term or short term ? To what extent is it true. Under what circumstances ? In which cells ? In what dosages ? Scientific theories must be consistent with all known facts, but they rarely are.

I have never been excluded scientifically. I have purposefully excluded myself. I have no interest in believing something to be true merely because adhering to convention makes it easier. Only logic and scientific facts dictate my views regardless of whether or not there is a single person that agrees with me.

Your knowledge of English seems good to me, certainly better than my knowledge of French, which despite five years of studying French is limited to "Le singe est dans l'arbre" (the monkey is in the tree). I went around Paris recently, looking for monkeys in trees so that I could show off my knowledge of French, but unfortunately in Paris there's a real shortage of them.

Please feel free to contact me about any matter kb@************

Daffy

[Bob Hardman]

I found your insights right-on! Another person who introduced me to neurotalk and I `were recently treated for PD at the Ayurpathic Hospital in Coimbator, India. One of the areas we shared was the psychosomatic reactions in this disease and how people will tell you to relax and that will only create more stress and tremors. I find yoga, meditation, quiet reflective reading a path to less stress and calm. Of course, this takes me out of the social arena which I love too. A dilemna. Bob

[Daffy Duck]

It is great to read all of you participating to this debate and giving your own conceptions even when with huge passion.
It changes from other subjects no one seems to understand the interest of, and it demonstrates how difficult it is for all of us to make choices when learning and avoid t get involved in new beliefs as well as to get rid of old credos.

The only goal here is to keep all the time properly informed.

Here are three articles about neurogenesis in the adult mammalian substantia nigra, all of them with full text links given.
Questions and remarks to come after.

Shan X, Chi L, Bishop M, Luo C, Lien L, Zhang Z, Liu R.
Enhanced de novo neurogenesis and dopaminergic neurogenesis in the substantia nigra of 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine-induced Parkinson's disease-like mice.
Stem Cells. 2006 May;24(5):1280-7.

Research reports on de novo neurogenesis, particularly dopaminergic (DA) neurogenesis in the adult mammalian substantia nigra (SN), remain very controversial. For this reason, we used the nestin second intron enhancer-controlled LacZ reporter transgenic mouse model coupled with the 1-methyl-4-phyenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP) lesion system to investigate whether there are neurogenesis and DA neurogenesis in the SN of the adult normal and Parkinson’s disease (PD)-like mice. First, we demonstrated the presence of neural progenitor cells (NPCs), basal levels of neurogenesis, and DA neurogenesis in the normal adult mouse SN. Second, we showed that there is not only a significant increase in the number of NPCs but also a dramatic increase of neurogenesis from the NPCs in the SN and the midline region adjacent to the SN of the PD-like mice compared with that of normal controls. More importantly, we also demonstrated that there is an increase of DA neurogenesis in the SN of the MPTP-lesioned mice. Third, we showed that the increased DA neurogenesis in the MPTP-lesioned mice was derived from the NPCs and 5-bromodeoxyuridine-positive cells, suggesting that multiple stem cell lineages may contribute to the enhanced neurogenesis in the adult SN. Taken together, these results establish that there are basal levels, albeit low, and increased levels of de novo neurogenesis and DA neurogenesis in the SN of the adult normal and PD-like mice, respectively. The increased NPCs in the MPTP-lesioned mice further suggest that experimental approaches to promote de novo neurogenesis may provide an effective therapy for PD by functional replacement of degenerated DA neurons.

full text = http://stemcells.alphamedpress.org/cgi/content/full/24/5/1280


Zhao M, Momma S, Delfani K, Carlen M, Cassidy RM, Johansson CB, Brismar H, Shupliakov O, Frisen J, Janson AM.
Evidence for neurogenesis in the adult mammalian substantia nigra.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Jun 24;100(13):7925-30.


New neurons are generated from stem cells in a few regions of the adult mammalian brain. Here we provide evidence for the generation of dopaminergic projection neurons of the type that are lost in Parkinson's disease from stem cells in the adult rodent brain and show that the rate of neurogenesis is increased after a lesion. The number of new neurons generated under physiological conditions in substantia nigra pars compacta was found to be several orders of magnitude smaller than in the granular cell layer of the dentate gyrus of the hippocampus. However, if the rate of neuronal turnover is constant, the entire population of dopaminergic neurons in substantia nigra could be replaced during the lifespan of a mouse. These data indicate that neurogenesis in the adult brain is more widespread than previously thought and may have implications for our understanding of the pathogenesis and treatment of neurodegenerative disorders such as Parkinson's disease.

Full text = http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/100/13/7925



Borta A, Hoglinger GU.
Dopamine and adult neurogenesis.
J Neurochem. 2007 Feb;100(3):587-95.

Dopamine is an important neurotransmitter implicated in the regulation of mood, motivation and movement. We have reviewed here recent data suggesting that dopamine, in addition to being a neurotransmitter, also plays a role in the regulation of endogenous neurogenesis in the adult mammalian brain. In addition, we approach a highly controversial question: can the adult human brain use neurogenesis to replace the dopaminergic neurones in the substantia nigra that are lost in Parkinson's disease?

Full text = http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/action/showPdf?submitPDF=Full+Text+PDF+%28681+KB%29&doi=10.1111%2Fj.1471-4159.2006.04241.x&cookieSet=1

These studies claim that dopaminergic neurons reproduce in adults, but they provide no evidence at all in their methods and results that demonstrates this. As often occurs in medical research, the conclusions simply don't match the results.

They provide evidence of "neurogenesis", and then merely falsely assume that will include all cell types including the dopoaminergic neurons. There are dozens of cell types in the brain, each with different functions. The vast majority of these cell types were already known to reproduce.

[burckle]

So Mr. Duck:

What is the object of your research?

Lloyd

[Daffy Duck]

So Mr. Duck:

What is the object of your research?

Lloyd

Do you mean in medicine and biochemistry as a whole OR in Parkinson's Disease ?

[Thelma]

I think both Keith as well as well as your interest Vida whatever would be a responsive answer. You need to be upfront and then you will get the respect you so are so needy for.

[Daffy Duck]

I think both Keith as well as well as your interest Vida whatever would be a responsive answer. You need to be upfront and then you will get the respect you so are so needy for.

I'll never need your respect Thelma. It's never been of any consequence to me. I don't value the opinion of somebody I don't value.

Over one hundred people on BrainTalk and NeuroTalk have contacted me asking me for scientific information. My guess is that is probably one hundred more than have asked you.

It appears that it's you that is really in need of respect. Your actions have always suggested to me that you crave it.

[Chemar]

For the benefit of all members, it would be appreciated if this discussion could stay on topic and not degenerate into negative personal comments, please.

thanks
Cheri

[burckle]

Duck

Given your response to Thelma I really have no interest in further commenication with you.

Lloyd

[Daffy Duck]

Duck

Given your response to Thelma I really have no interest in further commenication with you.

Lloyd
Given your response, I'm glad. I wasn't interested to begin with.

[Jo*mar]

Can we try to be a bit more polite here?
You are off topic - those types of comments can be PMed or emailed if you feel they are necessary to make.
They don't need to be made on the forum.

[kimmydawn]

It's unfortunate when I have to come into a thread and lock it because some, not all, of the members involved choose to publicly post personal dislike and/or attack, or respond with the same.

It's very unfortunate when I have to do it with a thread as informative as this can, and has been. It's not a feel good for me for sure.

However, there have been actions both publicly and behind the scenes to help this thread stay on track...with some success.

If you have a personal issue with another member here that's posting within the guidelines, take it to PM please. Posting personal dislike, or responses to that, with flames disrupts the experience for those who want to relate, share, communicate. It doesn't just upset the member you have a personal focus on in the moment.

If someone posts a public attack, or flame, please refrain from responding and report the post. Responding continues the conflict...fuels the fire. If you don't like someone, or something they've said on a personal level, send them a PM.

There are many more reading and attempting to respond than just the person you might have personal issue with.

If public flames and attacks continue from this point, they will be removed and the person(s) involved will receive a PM...regarding either initial perceived attack or response in a flaming/attacking manner.

Please keep it supportive. Remember, if you don't like someone or their posting, you can place them on ignore to get the most of your experience. You can report their posting if it's against the guidelines. You can PM them your upset. There are many tools to use that enable you to be heard and interact here *within* the guidelines for the benefit of the whole. Members have really good tools to control, to a huge degree, their experiences here.

I know it can be difficult when we're feeling anger or upset, or even a deep passion about something, NOT to reflect that in our posting. It's OK to disagree, it's OK to show that passion, it's OK to show that view from the other side of the fence. What's not OK is to take it to the level where it becomes a personal attack in perception of the reader. It's at that point we should back away for a few, click that "red x" for a bit, take it to PM, gripe about it with another, whatever your need might be to keep from posting publicly something that can be considered hurtful or flaming for the whole of this forum.

This is not to one particular member involved in this thread, and many have kept their posting within the guidelines. In fact, that's why I'm loathe to lock it. However, I feel it best at this time.

Thanks,

KD