About mothers

[BJ]

Addy requested that I start a thread about mothers so I will try because I need to get this out.

I've seen so many negative posts about mothers since Mother's Day and it makes me so sad, or better yet it's a trigger for me. This is something I found about mothers.

What is a Mother's love?

A Mother's love is something
that no on can explain,
It is made of deep devotion
and of sacrifice and pain,
It is endless and unselfish
and enduring come what may
For nothing can destroy it
or take that love away . . .
It is patient and forgiving
when all others are forsaking,
And it never fails or falters
even though the heart is breaking . . .
It believes beyond believing
when the world around condemns,
And it glows with all the beauty
of the rarest, brightest gems . . .
It is far beyond defining,
it defies all explanation,
And it still remains a secret
like the mysteries of creation . . .
A many splendoured miracle
man cannot understand
And another wondrous evidence
of God's tender guiding hand.

That's what a mother's love is. And my mom had all that and more. But notice, sacrifice and pain. :(

I've seen posts, not in this forum but others, where a mother is called wicked, evil and all sorts of names. I just don't understand. It just tears me apart to read that. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking but you only have one mom. And she brought you into this world with love in her heart. Things may not have worked out the way YOU wanted them to but she's still your mom and she tried to give you everything YOU wanted. But she tried and that's all you can ask for. And for those who still have their moms, cherish every moment because she won't be here forever.

You know something my mom always told me? A son is a son until he gets a wife but a daughter is a daughter the rest of your life. Now I'm an only child right? Nope. I've been keeping this in and haven't even told my pdoc until today. My brother committed suicide when he was 14 years old. Hung himself in the bathroom, no note, no reason, just gone. Why? I'll never know. My mom and dad were always there for him and tried to give him everything he wanted.

Maybe there's something in the genetics but I'm not sure. I've tried to commit suicide several times and yes I'm ashamed of it. :o All it accomplished was sending me off to the hospital and being "labeled". But I'm grieving for my mom. Being a Roman Catholic, I won't get into Heaven though if I do but I have weak moments and sometimes they take hold of me and I can't control them. And being BP, you never know. I think, my mom's there why not join her?

I just needed to get this out so you know how I feel and why I'm grieving for my mom so much and why so many posts have upset me lately. Am I weak? I don't know I just know that I'm utterly exhausted and relieved that I got this out. Maybe now I can get some quality sleep. And my pdoc is quite proud of me. :D

[Alffe]

I'm proud of you too BJ....that you could finally talk about "it". How I feel for your parents to have lost a child like that and for you to lose a brother. :(

You are so fortunate to have had such a loving mother...not everyone has that in their past. I've told you this before..I think your mother has a wonderful daughter. :hug:

[BJ]

I'm sitting here staring at my words and can't believe I even wrote them. I thought about deleting them several times but I have to get this out.

I don't mean any harm to anyone else who doesn't have a good relationship with their parents. I was one of the lucky ones and had 2 of the best. I know that they tried their darnedest to give us everything we wanted. And I was happy. But my brother, I don't know what happened. Life is a mystery and now I'm left to wonder by myself what went wrong.

[Doody]

That's great that you can get that out of your system and the poem is beautiful.

My daughter and I are very close. She says I'm not only a mom she loves but a best friend as well.

My mom and I aren't close. We've had our issues. But for the most part, she and my dad have been there for me when I needed them.

I'm so sorry about your brother. :hug: You rest easy and take good care of yourself!!!

:grouphug: for BP

[BJ]

She says I'm not only a mom she loves but a best friend as well.

And that was what my mom was to me, she was my friend and I'd do anything to have her back.

[bizi]

dear Girlie,
This is the place to talk about it and I am so sorry that you lost your brother this way...I too lost my brother to suicide.
I also want to wish for you some sleep tonight.
((((HUGS))))
bizi:grouphug:

[BJ]

Thank you Bizi and I know how you and your mom are going through such a rough time with it right now. I've been holding it in since Mother's Day and just couldn't get it to come out. That's what I alluded to when I said I'm under so much stress, besides my job, but that's another story. I HAD to get this out.

I can't say enough how sorry I am that you and your mom are going through this right now. :hug:

I also want to wish for you some sleep tonight.

Me too. :D

And a big thank you to Addy for edging me on. I don't think I would have had the nerve if you hadn't posted that. :hug:

[Doody]

I bet that your mother was VERY proud of you BP. I know I would be. I don't even like to think about my passing in that I know how much it will affect my daughter.

:hug:

[KathyM]

MeBP

Thank you for having the courage to talk with us about it. I'm sorry you're feeling so alone. My condolences on the loss of your brother. :(

I don't have any daughters, but I have a very close relationship with my son. I credit my mother for this because she taught me how NOT to be a mother. From the beginning, I made it clear to my son he could talk with me about anything. Fortunately for me, my face was paralyzed by the time he was a teenager, so the shock over content didn't show so much. :eek:

When he was home on leave recently, before he returned to the base he played this song on the piano for me. It's called "A Song for Mama" by Boyz2Men. It made me cry. Here's the lyrics:

You taught me everything
And everything you've given me
I always keep it inside
You're the driving force in my life, yeah
There isn't anything
Or anyone that I can be
And it just wouldn't feel right
If I didn't have you by my side
You were there for me to love and care for me
When skies were grey
Whenever I was down
You were always there to comfort me
And no one else can be what you have been to me
You will always be you always will be the girl
In my life for all times

Chorus:
Mama, mama you know I love you
Oh you know I love you
Mama, mama you're the queen of my heart
Your love is like
Tears from the stars
Mama, I just want you to know
Lovin' you is like food to my soul
Yes it is

You're always down for me
Have always been around for me even when I was bad
You showed me right from my wrong
Yes you did
And you took up for me
When everyone was downin' me
You always did understand
You gave me strength to go on
There was so many times
Looking back when I was so afraid
And then you come to me
And say to me I can face anything
And no one else can do
What you have done for me
You'll always be
You will always be the girl in my life

*****
I've referred to my mother as "wicked" in the past, and I'll probably continue to do so. We developed a mutual hatred for each other that can't be denied. If she were still alive, she'd probably use the same name to describe me. :p

However, I understand NOW what made her appear wicked to me. I've forgiven her completely, so I hold nothing but love for her now. She could have - and would have - been a great mother if she would have been given the chance.

I also understand why I appeared so wicked to her. It may sound strange, but I believe she's forgiven ME. There are times when I'm laid up in bed racked with pain. I think of my mom, especially when I'm missing my son. I think of myself as a child, and the only words that come to mind are "you ungrateful little bi*tch" (comparing my childhood behavior to my son). I think of my mom out there somewhere giggling at me and saying "Hurts, don't it? - I'm sorry you're in pain."

It's not possible for me to be with my son now. I can only care from a distance, but he knows I want him to remain strong and true. I want his needs to be met, and I want him to be content with life.

It's not possible for your mother to be with you now. I don't mean to step on any religious toes, but I strongly believe she's also caring from a distance and wants you to be happy. :hug:

[BJ]

I bet that your mother was VERY proud of you BP. I know I would be

Thank you Doody and I so hope that you're right.

Kathy I'm so sorry for what you're going through right now...I had no idea. But I just want to reassure you that it's nothing that you've said or done. If you did I never saw it. BTW, I love that song by BTM. :hug:

I feel like a big weight has been lifted off my chest. But I still live with the nightmares. I was the one to find my brother. We shared the same bathroom and when he didn't answer I just thought he was taking too long as usual. I got impatient and opened the door and....................

[Alffe]

Ohhhhhh BJ...no wonder you have nightmares...how awful for you. :(
May I ask how long ago that was? And what was his name? 14 is so young, you've hardly begun to live. Warm hugs...:hug:

[BJ]

It was almost 20 years ago to the day, June 12th. This is why it's been so heavy on my mind. He was my younger brother and we got along so well. We were totally blind-sided by all this. Not even a clue that anything was wrong. His name was Mark. My mom named him after Mark the Evangelist.

[bizi]

more hugs for you dear girlie.
((((HUGS)))):grouphug:
bizi

[Addy]

(((BP)))
I hope you were able to see Oprah yesterday... so much is being learned about depression.
I truly hope that you have a good doctor or therapist who can help you through this sad time once again.
You are very blessed to have had such a wonderful relationship with your mother. Thank you so much for opening up... it helps us all understand more about ourselves and you. :hug:

(((KathyM))) :hug: your son is a very special young man - I've always known that. What a lovely gift to hear him sing and play that song for you. Does he have any opportunity to use his music in the military? I'm sure he's using that gift for strength. I do.

xo

[Alffe]

Mark...the Evangelist. :) I feel like I'm getting to know your Mom a tiny bit.
We named Michael because it meant Lionhearted. :)

As if suicide isn't awful enough...being blind-sided by a loved one doing this makes you feel even guiltier for not knowing there was a problem. And then the police come to your house and ask you all those personal questions. ~sigh

Twenty years is a very long time of not talking about it BJ. I couldn't talk about Michael for 8 years so I was just stuck in that awful place...If I couldn't talk about his death..I couldn't talk about his life.

Did Mark like sports? Was he the youngest child in your family. Our Michael was the oldest..our first born and only son.

I hope you got some sleep last night. :hug:

[BJ]

We were only a year apart in age Alffe and we had such a good brother-sister relationship. He wanted to be a baseball player and his whole life revolved around baseball. My mom and I went to almost every single game all the way from Little League to Babe Ruth. He had everything going for him and was such a great pitcher that no one could even hit his pitches. He worked out and treated his body like a temple because he said he was going to pitch for the NY Yankees one day.

But what happened? The day he did "it" was the day he graduated from middle school. He was so excited about pitching high school baseball in the fall. We talked about it many many times and he said he was going to work out all summer and be prepared mentally and physically to make the team. We were all so proud of him at the graduation because even though he played baseball he still was an honor student. He wanted to go college and study engineering and of course play baseball. We all went out to dinner that night and went to bed. Then in the morning I found him.

I remember when the police came and my mom told me to go upstairs. I heard all the questions being asked and all I remember my mom and dad saying were no, we didn't know. Many many nights I heard my mom and dad talking about it and my mom kept saying we should have known, we could have helped him. But they didn't know anything was wrong or what made him snap. He had the whole world laid out in front of him.

I just hope that God gave him a break and let him into heaven even though he did "it". And now my mom and dad are watching him play God's baseball. :D

[Alffe]

:hug: One of my son-in-laws is Catholic and he said the church has changed it's position regarding suicide...he assured me that our Michael was with our loving God..(how he can "know this" is beyond me :D but I love him all the more for trying to make us feel better.)

In fact, our girls, and their husbands went over to clean up Michaels apt....cut the blood out of the carpeting, packed his things and moved them to our barn so we didn't have to see that. I'm sure they have memories they'd rather not have.

How your parents must have suffered this loss...and the acompanying guilt.
We are supposed to protect our children...even from themselves. How could we know if they don't tell us? My last conversation with Michael was that evening on the phone...I invited him over for chili and to watch a movie with us. He said, "no Mom...I have a cold and am just going to chill out." I said I love you and he said I love you too. for all the good that did. :(

Mark had so much to look forward to...a bright future with plans. It's hard/impossible to understand. And for you to find him there.....words fail me.

:hug:

[BJ]

:hug: Alffe I'm so sorry for stirring up old memories of Michael's death. That's why I was hesitant in bringing this out and almost deleted it. But as I guess you know, you have to talk about it because this demon has to come out of the closet. I've wanted to tell you about Mark a long time ago but couldn't get the words to come out. I still don't understand and to even think about it just makes my heart ache. If there was a note, some reason for it I'd understand better. I remember when they got the autopsy results and found no health problems, no drugs, nothing. We were hoping deep down that there was something medical or drugs. But I knew he never did drugs because of baseball.

I know you're hurting at this time Alffe and I'm so sorry.:hug: And I hope you're right that Mark is in heaven. I know my mom and dad are so they're all together now. :D

I didn't sleep well but the sun is shining and I'm going to work out in my garden. My garden is my comfort zone and I feel at peace there. :)

[Alffe]

Please do not be sorry for talking about Marks death. I feel that by talking about Michaels suicide here people will come to understand the everlasting results of their choices....and not kill themselves.

I love saying his name...hearing his name. Please don't delete your posts BJ...we can try to educate others by sharing our pain. :hug:

And gardens are just the best place to feel close to our loved ones. :)

[Doody]

I'm at a loss for comforting words. Losing your loved ones is so hard.

Kathy M....I remember you talking to me about your son years ago when he was still living at home with you and then he sounded like a wonderful young man and YOU a wonderful mother. I know you guys have a loving bond. It's hard when the kids leave the nest, though, isn't it?

BP, I love my garden as well but today it's just rain rain rain and I won't be out there but I'll think of you in your's. :)

Hugs for all the survivors here.

[BJ]

I can feel the sadness in your post Alffe:hug: and I truly hope that I in no way contributed to that. That's comforting knowing that you love to say and hear Michael's name. I never even mentioned Mark to anyone but my inner self. It's not that I want him out of my life, goodness no. I'm just so confused and always wonder what if. I'd do anything to turn back the hands of time and sit down that night and just chat with him like we used to do. But we were all tired from the graduation and ate way too much at dinner and we went to bed early. The next day we were getting up early and heading down the NJ shore for the week. But then...

I do hope you're right Alffe and someone reads this and thinks twice about doing "it". So much pain, so much heart ache. :(

[Addy]

I have not lost a child to suidice so I cannot even fathom the depth of sorrow felt forever.

BP - when your parents talked - do you know what type of things they thought that brought them to say: we should have known... or ... were they left to wonder until they met Mark in heaven?

Alffe - thank god for the "I love you's" :hug:

so much sadness we will never quite understand... yet, it makes us who we are...


We are learning a song in our Chorus right now - its from the Broadway show "Wicked" and until now, I had never heard it... but the words are beautiful....

Artist: Wicked
Song: For Good
Album: Wicked (2003 Original Broadway Cast)
[" Wicked (2003 Original Broadway Cast) " CD]


I've heard it said
That people come into our lives for a reason
Bringing something we must learn
And we are led
To those who help us most to grow
If we let them
And we help them in return
Well, I don't know if I believe that's true
But I know I'm who I am today
Because I knew you

Like a comet pulled from orbit
As it passes a sun
Like a stream that meets a boulder
Halfway through the wood
Who can say if I've been changed for the better?
But because I knew you
I have been changed for good

It well may be
That we will never meet again
In this lifetime
So let me say before we part
So much of me
Is made of what I learned from you
You'll be with me
Like a handprint on my heart
And now whatever way our stories end
I know you have re-written mine
By being my friend...

Like a ship blown from its mooring
By a wind off the sea
Like a seed dropped by a skybird
In a distant wood
Who can say if I've been changed for the better?
But because I knew you

Because I knew you

I have been changed for good

And just to clear the air
I ask forgiveness
For the thing I've done you blame me for

But then, I guess we know
There's blame to share

And none of it seems to matter anymore

Like a comet pulled from orbit
As it passes a sun
Like a stream that meets a boulder
Halfway through the wood

Like a ship blown from its mooring
By a wind off the sea
Like a seed dropped by a bird in the wood

Who can say if I've been
Changed for the better?
I do believe I have been
Changed for the better

And because I knew you...

Because I knew you...

Because I knew you...
I have been changed for good.


...............
xo Addy

[BJ]

when your parents talked - do you know what type of things they thought that brought them to say: we should have known... or ... were they left to wonder until they met Mark in heaven?


I have no idea Addy and that's what tears me apart. I think my mom and dad, especially my mom, were guilt-ridden. No one had any idea that anything was wrong. They talked to his friends, his baseball team and coach and everything was okay. They too had no idea. Everyone was just as stunned and shocked as we were. We went to bed that night and all was well, but not for Mark. Something was inside him and he just "snapped".

It well may be
That we will never meet again
In this lifetime
So let me say before we part
So much of me
Is made of what I learned from you
You'll be with me
Like a handprint on my heart
And now whatever way our stories end
I know you have re-written mine
By being my friend...

Thank you so much for sharing this. My mom and my brother were my friends and this really hit home. I saw this on Broadway and absolutely loved it. The Wizard of Oz is one of my all time favorite movies. I still wake up at nights screaming "Run Tota run". :)

I just want to thank you all for your replies and your kind words. You have no idea how hard this was for me. I usually wear my heart on my sleeve but not this time. I'm relieved but totally in shock that I even posted this. Now I just have to think about what I've done and I hope and pray that Mark doesn't feel any "different" about me then the day he left this earth.

[moonstar]

hi bp.....
i was the luckiest girl in the world to have had the best mother and bestest friend..but she left this world way to early--she was only 53--and has been gone for 14 yrs now..i have still not stopped grieving for her.. i don't know how to..lloking back into my childhood should bring happiness and sometimes it does but mostly i feel like a big part of my soul is missing...i have thought of leaving this world so many times just to be with her..but she left me with 2 handicapped adopted brothers to raise and love..to give them the best of myself in her memory..to complete her legacy of caring for our boys.. then david, oh my david, left me in 2005..besides my mom he was my all.. we cured each others pains with only a touch and a smile.(david could not talk)
he left me because an aide in the hospital didn't do her job as she was instructed and he fractured his leg,wound up with phnemonia,after his surgery, and died in my arms... my life (if you can call it a life) has been nothing since he has gone too...
my other brother,Terry, is autistic and i still am here for him physically but mentally i am nowhere.. i am looking for a group home for him so he will have a better life..i can not give to him the love he so deserves..i am a failure at all i touch.. to have so much love taken away from me is too much to handle..i sit here and wonder why?? why can't i just walk away from everything and everybody?? why the hell am i still here in so much pain?? selfish me needs and wants them back so much...david was in allot of pain for most of his life..we adopted him when he was 6 months old and the drs said he would not live to see his first birthday(dec.25,1980) my mom and me kept him alive for 25 yrs. and to have him die cuz someone was too lazy just to sit by the side of his hospital bed(while i went to the bathroom for 20 min) and she sat in the hall.. he had complications and left me alone.. even in a crowd i am alone..
it bothers me too when i hear people badmouthing their mothers..i try to understand that all are not as special as mine was.. my doctor told me 14 yrs ago, when i was diagnosed with rsd and many other numerous problems since then, "i was put on this earth to be tortured..and live forever"..i really was praying that he was wrong...but as of now..he is right on target...no matter what i could do to myself..it would only hurt me more and i would still be here...--off to watch the boob tube as i have not been sleeping ..peaceful night to us all--moonstar

[moonstar]

i just want to apologize...i went so off topic--my brain just kept rambling--:sorry: :sorry: --moonstar

[moose53]

((((((BJ)))))),

http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/huggiebears-mini.gif

You were very brave to finally talk about Mark's suicide. My brother, John, committed suicide when he was 21 and I was 22.

Born 11 months apart. We were like twins. We looked alike. We sounded the same. We could finish each other's sentences. Half of my soul.

We didn't talk about it in my family either. The only two people that knew about it (but, did not talk about it) were me and my Mother. Even my Father did not know, she told him it was a heart attack -- that's what she told everyone.

He was in the Navy at the time. I was the one that had to request the autopsy (came to me the week before Christmas). I also had to request a board of inquiry. I didn't realize until I finished my 13 years of therapy how cruel it had been for my Mom to put me in charge of everything.

I know what it's like to lose your baby brother :(

My Mother had told me that my Brother had attempted suicide a couple of times at home when he was still living there before joining the Navy. I never knew that until my Mom told me.

You know, BJ, now that you've finally said the words -- you'll start to heal.

There's a saying that I read in a book once -- can't remember the name of it -- "Tea and talk is Jewish therapy -- you talk over tea until what you talk about becomes just memories that you share with others." That's the gist of it, not an exact quote.

Suicide affects everyone that's been touched by it even in the slightest way -- family, friends, fellow students, co-workers, people that have gone to the same church or temple or synagogue.

There's was no note in my Brother's case either. I always 'knew' that something wasn't right. You come to a point, at least I did, where the answer comes to you in your heart. It'll be 41 years in October since by Brother committed suicide.

I wish I had him back in my life. I wonder how different my life would have been if he were still in it. But, I wouldn't want to lose the person that I've become because of his suicide.

We heal when we give up the pain. We NEVER have to give up the love or the memories.

BIG HUGS. I'm proud of you too, BJ.

Barb :hug:

[Lara]

:grouphug:

[Doody]

(((Moonstar))) I'm so sorry for the pain you've been through, and you've been through a lot. You're a very special person and I hope you find peace in your mind. You've done so much. You deserve to have happiness.

BP maybe you can talk to your mom and dad about it and bring it out in the open.

:grouphug:

[BJ]

:hug: Moonstar :hug: no need to apologize. You've been through so much and I can feel the heart ache in your voice. I don't know you, yet anyway, but I have so much admiration for you. But Moonstar you are correct...we are the luckiest girls in the world. :D

:hug: Barbara :hug: I had no idea your brother committed suicide also. Even more so with everything thrown at you to do about it. But the difference is you knew something wasn't right. I, we had no idea.

I know that now that I've said it I should start the healing process..my pdoc said that too. But why am I'm hurting so bad today? I feel like I've let him down or something. I've kept this in so long but it was just eating at me. I've almost mentioned it several times, the latest being when someone posted "Why don't they just say it?". Mark's obit didn't say it either. It just said that he went home to the Lord. And I felt I had to be close to the Lord today. I went to all 3 masses at our church today and I prayed and prayed to Mark to forgive me.

BP maybe you can talk to your mom and dad about it and bring it out in the open.

Oh Doddy I'd give anything to be able to do that. But they're with Mark. They know the answer but I'm left here wondering and wonder what went wrong. :o

[Doody]

Oh lord, I'm sorry BP! I forgot! Well...you will heal, mostly. There's always that empty spot in your heart and soul. I still have moments when I think about my sister and of course it makes me sad. Watching her die slowly for a year took its toll on many lives. But after 21 years, the pain lessens a lot. I know she went off to accomplish other things that she needed to do.

You have nothing to be guilty about, and don't you forget it!!! Sometimes, you just don't see someone's suicide coming. Apparently they want to go, so they do.

Hugs.

And no Moonstar, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for!!! :grouphug:

[BJ]

No need to apologize Doody. That's why I've always felt so alone and was one of the reasons I joined NT besides the BP diagnosis. But I couldn't get the words to come out and I held in. :confused:

I'm so sorry about your sister Doody. I lost a good friend to cervical cancer and....well it doesn't matter.

I know she went off to accomplish other things that she needed to do.

I'm sure she did Doody and my heart goes out to you. Cancer is such a cruel disease. :hug:

[moonstar]

i am not sure if this is the right way to say this or feel this but here it goes::i feel like i am a survivor of suicide everyday since i have lost so many important people in my life and the use of most of my own body...there isn't a day that goes by without me thinking of leaving this painful life--but then someone says how important i am to them or how much they need me around that i say ok not today..but i am just so tired and depressed..but still hanging on (if even by a hair) and trying to deal with all that my life is trowing at me..one after another after another for the last 14 years...thank you all for being so understanding-- :confused: moonstar

[Alffe]

Moonstar, you said it perfectly. :hug: Fighting that beast is an ongoing battle and winning the fight is the important thing. I'm sorry you have so much pain in your life and I so admire you for hanging in there. Fourteen years is a very long time to battle...this is the place to talk about "it". :grouphug: