just wondering.......

[Wittesea]

I have seen a lot of people comment across the BT2 forum that one of their main concerns about the BT1 crash is the possibility that so much information is lost and gone forever. Thousands of posts with invaluable information....

And then of course there are all the very old posts and info from the neuro-mancer server that disappeared a long time ago and probably will never be seen on the internet again.

My question is this - is there any legal precedent where a website or non-profit orginization has been sued and forced by the courts to release the lost information?

I ask because it was heartbreaking to me when the neuro-mancer server posts were no longer available because so much happened in my life during the time I posted on that server, and my posts there were like a journal and it never occured to me to back them up since we were assured that the info would always be available even after BT changed servers and software.

I assume that many other members feel the same way that I do about the loss of information and posts from the old neuro-mancer server --- and now with BT being down for so long this time it's terrifying to think that old posts and info could again be lost.

So back to my question -- could John be forced via the courts to (at the very least) release a disk of the old neuro-mancer server posts? or at the most make the old info/posts available again on the internet?

I'm not personally interested in suing for the information, so please don't think I'm asking this question in the hopes of getting a lawyer and suing BT and John. That is not the case at all. I'm just curious about the legal responsibility to release/provide the old info/posts, especially since a promise was made when the new server was set up that the old stuff would always be available.


Any thoughts?

[Thelma]

There are quite a few of them here


http://web.archive.org/web/20021019111019/neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&category=3&BypassCookie=true

[Curious]

and here...but not sure how they could be put back in a forum. no way to even look up a post that i can see. but hundreds and hundreds of them.

http://www.sellaffiliate.com/mulmul/1412016.php

[Curious]

Nope.

For one thing, I don't think he has it. Gone and destroyed, except for the bits and pieces gleaned by webbots.


lol...the dreaded webbots that always made it look like there were soooo many users.

so is granola liberal like liberally choccy coated granola? :p

and did YOU shave yet or are you braiding? :eek: ;)

[Wittesea]

Nope.

For one thing, I don't think he has it. Gone and destroyed, except for the bits and pieces gleaned by webbots.

I wouldn't be suprised if it was a gone... but I remember that post that he once wrote about having the whole world in his hands - he was walking home from work with a disk in his hand that was the back-up of the entire BT system and all it's posts and he then wrote this post about how it felt so sureal to him to be holding something so small (a DVD disk) that is so important to so many people (every BT post ever written).

So, it was that post he wrote so long ago that still gives me a glimmer of hope that there is a disk somewhere with all the posts that are long gone and out of reach to us.

With so many posts about the beginning of my illness, and the posts about dealing/coping with my husbands cancer, I would pay good money to be able to get a copy of any back-up disks he has with the old posts on them.... and I bet I'm not the only BT member who feels that way about the loss of info and would be willing to pay to get it back.

[wannabe]

I wouldn't be suprised if it was a gone... but I remember that post that he once wrote about having the whole world in his hands - he was walking home from work with a disk in his hand that was the back-up of the entire BT system and all it's posts and he then wrote this post about how it felt so sureal to him to be holding something so small (a DVD disk) that is so important to so many people (every BT post ever written).



I remember him saying that too! But I don't remember hearing any word whatsoever when the archived system was gone. Do you? I don't even remember a response when people asked about the Artistic Expression material and whether it was going to be published or not? Was there a resolution given for that too? I remember seeing the questions, but no answers about those precious poems, etc. people made.

I might have missed it though.

[Bobbi]

There is a way to possibly recover several posts (from brain.hastypastry.net) on your own, Wittesea. It will be "cached" or archived copies.

Go to: google.com

Type this is the search bar: site:brain.hastypastry.net username

Where I've written username, type your BT username.

When the results display, click on the Cached links next to where it states: Supplemental Result.

(I've tried using the WayBack Machine (http://www.archive.org) for the most current BT forums, and, so far, that approach hasn't been productive. The WayBack Machine has, however, resulted in also being able to read posts from the neuro-mancer BT forums. It is time-consuming, yet I missed a lot since I came to BT years after it started.)

[ZombieSlayer]

From my understanding the hard drive that held the post from neuro mancer was broken/damaged beyond recovery (reasonable expense recovery I'll ammend).

When Mr. Lester made the post about having all of BrainTalk on disc, it was some time after we moved to the new forums. Therefore I can only assume the backup was for the data on the "new" forums.

Now back to my ammendment, there are ways to extract data from damaged hard drives. It is very very expensive and has zero guarantees of successful data recovery.

So let's assume somebody does sue for the data and the hard drive is turned over to that person. They most likely won't have either the funding, or know how to get the data from the hard drive.

Short story, I don't believe the data can be recovered from the neuro mancer database.

Oh and I'd also like to know what's up with the Artistic Expression compilation.

[Wittesea]

Oh boy did I kick a hornets nest by starting this post, and for that I apologize, I am just thankful that the hornets nest erupted via email so it was not disruptive on the forum.

To the folks who are very upset because they think I am contemplating a lawsuit - I HAVE NO INTENTION OF EVER SUING BRAINTALK OR JOHN.

I am just a curious sort of person who wonders about things, so ever since the neuro-mancer server disappeaed and the posts were lost I have been wondering if anyone else could or would sue, but of course I felt uncomfortable posting the question on braintalk because I was afraid people would misinterprate it and think I was going to sue.

I thought now that since time has passed and since so many people are being open and honest on this BT2 forum that I could finally ask the question without backlash. I guess I wasn't clear enough about my intentions - that it was just a question asked out of curiousity.

Secondly to the folks who contacted me asking if they could join me in my lawsuit. THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE A LAWSUIT! and I am now very sorry that I put the idea in anyone elses head.

This is certainly not the first time in my life where I asked a question out of curiousity and landed myself (and possibly others) in hot water, and it probably won't be the last time either because I am such a curious person who wonders about so many things...

[KTM5665]

oh for Gods sakes....

If you type it down in the net, it belongs to the free world. Why would anyone waste time considering a lawsuit?

Wittsea....I do hope you got yourself a good laugh out of that one~!

[stumps]

Well anyone who had read your original post properly would have seen that you had no intention whatsover of sueing..
Curiousity ... it is a good thing..stay the way you are Wittesea

[Wittesea]

Actually, the thing I found most amusing was how many people managed to find my email address... (I certainly don't mind that people found it to email me, I just found it interestingly amusing that people would go through so much hassle just to find me).

Yes, my email addy is posted on the internet in various old BT1 posts that can be found via google cache, but when you do a google search for wittesea email, most of the pages you get are to the 'email wittesea' link on the BT1 forums (which doesn't tell them my email addy it just allows people to click the link, but since BT1 is broken you can't click the link through google cache pages).

Anyway, it took me almost 10 minutes of messing aroud with google cached pages to finally find an old BT post with my email addy in the post itself, and then I messed around some more and did manage to get my yahoo profile as part of my search results.

So I do applaud people for going through that hassle to find me. :) Although the funny part is that my email addy is about as simple as can be - I use yahoo and my email user name is exactly the same as my user name here.

[Wittesea]

Well anyone who had read your original post properly would have seen that you had no intention whatsover of sueing..
Curiousity ... it is a good thing..stay the way you are Wittesea

Yeah, and in my second post I even said I would pay good money to John (and/or Braintalk Inc.) in order to get a copy of the old posts of mine that discussed my illness and my husbands cancer, etc...

I may personally dislike the direction that BT has taken lately, but I still recognize BT as a great place for so many people and I would never want to do anything to harm that.

[dorry]

And then of course there are all the very old posts and info from the neuro-mancer server that disappeared a long time ago and probably will never be seen on the internet again.



THAT was a great loss! Like you, mine became a journal of sorts that I could review with optimism, seeing the positive changes my health had made since my initial accident and resulting RSD. We had alot of good computer tech posts too, with detailed instructions of fixes that were lost. With the new forum I got to the point where it was too exhausting to retype all that information, so I seldom did.

As far as suing, like KTM5665 said, once you hit send, it is no longer your property as it becomes the property of the one who owns the server. Just like an employer that has full access to your emails. It belongs to them.

[anonymous_no_more]

it continues to amaze me that anyone would have the expectation of storage space, through time, from a board that was clearly made available [for free] and operated to the best of its ability/resources...no guarantees.

perhaps this is a reminder to all of us that if our histories are that important [to us] that we find a service that guarantees against data loss, and promises to be there in the future, for all time. Good luck with that.:rolleyes:

perhaps this is a reminder that our own histories, journals, etc. are our own responsibility, and to protect against "final" data loss, make copies of treatises published on the internet, and store them to our own computers [assuming one has that ability].

it is good to be gadfly, better yet, better to be someone who takes action, and assumes responsibility for their own data...

BT owes no one anything that isn't "promised" in their terms of service. If someone is expecting data that will never be lost or corrupted, 100% uptime, etc., then perhaps it is time to find a service that makes that guarantee and pay for that pleasure...

with all due respect.

[moose53]

Hey, everybody!! http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/wave.gif

I thought that John said when we moved to the new Hasty-Pastry forum that the problem with the neuro-mancer and the even older stuff was that it just wasn't in a format that was convertible to vBulletin software.

Am I having a real memory or was I dreaming :confused: :rolleyes:

Have a good day

[ZombieSlayer]

Hey, everybody!! http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/wave.gif

I thought that John said when we moved to the new Hasty-Pastry forum that the problem with the neuro-mancer and the even older stuff was that it just wasn't in a format that was convertible to vBulletin software.

Am I having a real memory or was I dreaming :confused: :rolleyes:

Have a good day

I don't know if that was said or not since I have no memory of it. But I don't think Mr. Lester would say that....almost any database can be converted to work with vB. It is possible though that at the time of the post (if it did take place) that there wasn't a converter available. Guess we'll have to wait for the forums to come back up and do some searching.

[DocJohn]

Actually, I've found most posts here not just "blasting" BT, but people providing their thoughts and experiences with their frustrations related to this downtime, which went without any sort of progress for over a month!

Could you imagine a senior center or non-profit community center in your neighborhood that you relied on daily for support and care closing its doors with a sign that simply said, "Sorry, lost electricity, will be back when you see a new sign posted"?

One person, awhile ago now, asked about legal precedents. By far, the majority of posts I've read here (and I've read nearly all of them) have expressed nothing but gratitude, appreciation, and hope for BT's future. I suggest you keep reading to see the outpouring of continued support JL and BT continue to receive. Support, with the hope that they will take into consideration the great deal of feedback offered here for improvements to the BT when it resumes.

John

[shotspine]

Wittesea was merely asking a question and clearly stated she was NOT planning on sueing anyone. She is one of John Lester's biggest cheerleaders and a terrific poster of support and information on BT.

Please read carefully before making accusations as you are way off base on this one.

[Rocking4Epilepsy]

Any word from JL as to when he will be back running?

[DocJohn]

Sorry, but when you're responsible and the technical caretaker for a community of 50,000+ members -- real, live human beings -- you treat them with the same respect as any community, whether you're being paid or not. Being "out of town" or "having a life" (what, community members don't have a life?) is not an excuse for anything, and I think we all recognize that.

There's some things here that just don't seem right to people, and what you've seen is people reacting to that (a month to get around to actually fixing the problem? a month before you update a status message when the message said it would be updated regularly? nearly 2 weeks to get a set of disks that could easily be purchased and mailed overnight, or by purchasing from one of the 6 Apple stores in the greater Boston area?). It has nothing to do with the appreciation everybody has also expressed to JL for running BT for all of these years. But it wasn't like JL *is* BT. BT has a board, right, and is its own non-profit? I would think one of the purposes of incorporating and having others involved is precisely to prevent these kinds of things happening.

Sorry, if you take on the responsibility all yourself, you have to be *responsible.* That's why I hope the new BT shows its members the respect they deserve when it comes back, and gives technical oversight of the operation to more people than just JL. As I've said many times, from what I know of JL, he's a great guy. But it seems obvious that this operation has grown much larger than one person, no matter how great and caring he is.

John

[anonymous]

Excellent summary of the situation! :)

[Ghost]

double post, my apology

[Ghost]

Sorry, but when you're responsible and the technical caretaker for a community of 50,000+ members -- real, live human beings -- you treat them with the same respect as any community, whether you're being paid or not. Being "out of town" or "having a life" (what, community members don't have a life?) is not an excuse for anything, and I think we all recognize that.

There's some things here that just don't seem right to people, and what you've seen is people reacting to that (a month to get around to actually fixing the problem? a month before you update a status message when the message said it would be updated regularly? nearly 2 weeks to get a set of disks that could easily be purchased and mailed overnight, or by purchasing from one of the 6 Apple stores in the greater Boston area?). It has nothing to do with the appreciation everybody has also expressed to JL for running BT for all of these years. But it wasn't like JL *is* BT. BT has a board, right, and is its own non-profit? I would think one of the purposes of incorporating and having others involved is precisely to prevent these kinds of things happening.

Sorry, if you take on the responsibility all yourself, you have to be *responsible.* That's why I hope the new BT shows its members the respect they deserve when it comes back, and gives technical oversight of the operation to more people than just JL. As I've said many times, from what I know of JL, he's a great guy. But it seems obvious that this operation has grown much larger than one person, no matter how great and caring he is.

John

This seems rather an ungracious post to unknown and about John Lester, DocJohn.

Saying "sorry" in the manner that you have is disrepectful and unusual for a professional, IMO. Unknown's posts were merely an opinion. An opinion that I thought well expressed and thoughtful. I see no need to be a smart-alec about it or to demonstrate such an emotional attachment about it.

As to John Lester, I don't know him personally though you say you do. Wouldn't the prudent and courteous thing to do be to pick up the telephone and give him a call? It's not even a long distance call for you. Why would you support *hints* of something not quite right in your post? Do you know something that everyone else does not or are you simply encouraging discontent with the original and only BrainTalk.

John Lester is irresponsible? Your remarks seem irresponsible to me.

Mr. Lester never said, to my knowledge that he has a life and the rest of us do not. Please enlighten me by providing a link to that remark.

John Lester has shown immense and unending care for the people on the real Braintalk. He has devoted thousands of hours (years) of his life to provide a support forum. It would be nice to see John Lester receive the respect that he deserves also.

And yes, Doc John, before you suggest that I read most of the posts in the forum, I have. In particular, the Forum Feedback section.

And before someone accuses me of being Mod#4, I am not. I'm not a moderator at all but I have been a member of Braintalk for years. I've never had a problem with Mod#4. In fact, I've never had a problem with any of the moderators. I've never been banned and I post on a regular basis. I'm not a member of any group. I'm just myself. And I appreciate BrainTalk. It was my first forum after diagnosis. What I've learned there is beyond a price.

I hope you will rename this forum and that it will survive. There is an obvious need for it's existence. But it's not Braintalk.

ghost

[paula_w]

ghost...ditto.

DocJohn ,

So it would be nice if you talked with us a bit. We are all looking at it for perhaps different reasons, and when you cut the connection, the system crashes and becomes unstable- communication at BT is a very frequently traveled highway.

I have been wondering what really was the truth and have my suspicions. I can't accuse and am not accusing - but its a community of human beings, the best ones - we know more than - no on second thought you know that exactly.

So what's up Doc? And I didn't plan to say that I swear it just dropped out .

Paula

Ghost I meant ditto for your been here, wonder whattup post. p

[dorry]

I don't know... I thought John was being supportive of our feelings and revealing to us that he's not a blind supporter of the bizarre BT1 explanation on hastypastry.

I appreciate people that always let you know where they stand. Thanks again John for providing a place where old friends can congregate.

[shotspine]

I understand why the BT trashers and banned used different usernames. What I don't understand is why those of you that obviously love and support JL/BT have chosen to use other names than your BT name? No accusations, I'm just curious. Maybe I should have used another name but I couldn't find a reason to do so (I'm a bit dense at times:confused: )

[paula_w]

ditto shotspine: just asking and suspicions come from not being told. I wouldn't know whether anyone should be accused of anything -we all need to question exactly what is going on now.. who is running the forum and why? Answers shouldn't be hard.

Curious about the comings and goings of a few people, but we could talk about that later.

Paula

[DocJohn]

Hi Ghost, my post was to unknown, not to JL, so if I implied I know or was answering something JL said, I apologize. That was not my intent. (I only know JL professionally and see him on IM everyday; but like most others here, my emails have gone unreturned.)

I have nothing but respect and admiration for the work JL has done. I see nothing wrong, however, with questioning the events that led up to this outage, what happened after it, and how service to the community was restored. I hope by doing so helps it prevent it from happening again in the future, not to show disrespect to JL or his work. I'm speaking out of the frustration I share with others here, not out of disrespect for him or his work, and I apologize.

John

[DocJohn]

Not much here... What would you like to know? :)

[shotspine]

I guess we'll see. I've writen much more and deleted, written and deleted. I can't think of much to say without being in trouble with someone.

[glenntaj]

Precisely what kind of retribution is feared?

I use my same username on this forum as I do on Braintalk, the Neuropathy Association, etc. I am also sure than on all these boards most people know exactly what my real name is, where I live, etc. I believe it's best to "hide" in plain sight, as it provides a degree of protection against unfounded accusations--anyone can Google me and find my posting history on many boards, which helps people make their own judgments (and, as the possessor of an unusual last name--Ribotsky, for those who don't know--I'm not likely to be confused with anyone else).

I am quite grateful to DocJohn for providing this alternative forum for us during the time Braintalk has been down. But remember, this forum would have been unnecessary had Braintalk not been offline for so long. It does not detract from John Lester's accomplishments with Braintalk, or from the value so many of us find in the community, to criticize and question WHY there have been so many long outages over the board's recent history, and why the communications about said outages have been terse and not completely transparent.

It is from that climate that so many of the angry and critical posts made here about the administration of Braintalk have come--and such posts only provide more evidence as to how valuable Braintalk is for so many. And it is to be expected in such a climate that other criticisms of Braintalk would surface.

People are peeved that their lifeline and info source has disappeared, and that it has done so for so long and without detailed explanation.

I am sensitive to the idea that this outage occurred at the worst possible time--when JL was travelling--and to the idea that he is allowed a non-Braintalk life. Nevertheless, Braintalk is still his baby--until the day he relinquishes guardianship to others--and no baby should be left without adequate caretakers. JL does merit THAT criticism. And it matters not that this is a volunteer, versus a paid, endeavor--it's still his baby. (I know I do not give my volunteer responsibilities--I am chair of the New York Road Race OmbudsAssociation, a volunteeer scorer at numerous road races, and a member of several committees in my co-op--short shrift just because they are unpaid, and I am sure most of us who do volunteer work can say the same.)

As I've said before, John Lester lives in such a rarified world of virtual communitites and such that he may not be fully aware of the reach and breadth of Braintalk, which is far greater than that of most such communities--it is a destination to get primary medical and resource information, not just contact and support, which distinguishes it from most other boards that he may now be heavily involved with. He may also not be completely aware of the depth of feelings about aspects of the board's administration at this point (as has been reported, many suspect he is not involved in a lot of the day-to-day). One can only hope at some point he reads some of these threads in depth, as one can see that most posts are not the ravings of malcontents, but serious considerations of the "state of Braintalk".

[ZombieSlayer]

So many outages in recent history?

Ummmm what...2 in 4 years? Trust me...that's not "so many". The first outage was due to hardware overload and was resolved in a reasonable amount of time.

The second one...still a bit cloudy (read my posts and you'll see where I posted what I thought was the reason(s) ).

As for his lack of replies/updates/responses...only Mr. Lester can explain.

[paula_w]

DocJohn,
Would it be rude to ask who sponsors your site and/or this one? i'm not dissatisfied with the forum and don't mean to sound accusing. and thank you for posting.

Paula

[DocJohn]

Not a problem; both are fair questions.

Psych Central sponsors this site as a public service.

Psych Central is principally funded by advertising revenues (as our most commercial websites these days).

John

[indigogo]

I am amazed at the level of suspicion that resides on this board. When I got an email from a friend that this site was up and running (at the very beginning), it was easy for me to ascertain who Doc John was and what his motivation was simply by reading the posts under general subjects and following the links provided. And I guess it is just experience from using other non-medical-related forums that I recognized this bulletin board format and color scheme - it is ubiquitous on the internet, not solely associated with BT1 or 2 by any means.

I am not a newbie - have been indigogo since I joined in 2002 on the old MGH board. I have almost exclusively posted in the Parkinson's forum.

But maybe I am naive and too trusting? It seemed that Doc John was clear from the first - and I believed him. Still do. He has been quite responsive, and just about as transparent as one can be on the internet.

I just don't get it.

[shotspine]

I just want to say that I appreciate your responses. Thanks:) Anyone else care to answer?

[paula_w]

I will admit to a bit of paranoia for a day, and I do appreciate your patience. I felt jerked around by a few posters, and spent too much time on Huffington Post while the forums were down. lol

Paula

[indigogo]

Paula -

A little bit of paranoia is probably a good thing - keeps you on your toes!

I guess I am more sad than amazed that we can't just accept this (for now) temporary home as a gift from someone who saw a need and filled it. My interpretation has always been that, given Doc John's background as a psychologist, he understood the importance of BrainTalk as psychological sustenance for many - and that its disappearance without explanation for a long period of time was not good. I believe there are people who do things without expectation of reward - except for that of the good deed itself.

The long time without a word from John Lester has me baffled - the justifications aren't plausible; the hardware/software issues should have been fixed more quickly, and JL's long silence seems out of character. It just doesn't make sense, but speculation also doesn't make sense. An interesting game, but not very productive.

Maybe someday we'll know the whole story; maybe BT1 will come back. In the meantime, thank you Doc John!

Cheers,

[Thelma]

Welcome to the Brain Aneurysm Foundation's message board. This board is part of a partnership with "BrainTalk Communities" sponsored in part by the Massachusetts General Hospital's Department of Neurology.

This is a direct copy from Braintalks list of forums. Why some forums and not all?

The above is not true and hasn't been for a long time.

Something is weird here. You 'doc' offered to help John and when he did not reply you went ahead and took from his forum hils words and created this one.

He did not want your help nor did he ask for it. Yet you did it anyway. Why?

I think you copied his forums but when did you do it and how did you do it after the site went down.

You had to have done it before....................something is not right here.

[dorry]

It seemed that Doc John was clear from the first - and I believed him. Still do. He has been quite responsive, and just about as transparent as one can be on the internet.

I just don't get it.

me either! I've been dorry since joining braintalk1. Maybe the problem is we all had our little hidey holes over there and saw the same posters day after day. Here, everyone is new to each other.

Guess we should have an introduction thread!

Hi I'm dorry. Joined BT1 when I got rsd from a wrist fracture. Got alot of good medical info and hooked up with some long lasting friends. Migrated to the computer forum about 3 yrs ago. That's about it :o

[dorry]

I believe there are people who do things without expectation of reward - except for that of the good deed itself.


Yep. And it's really sad that they get crucified for it. I admire ppl that will step up to the plate and fill a need, because it needs filling.

All this paranoia, just tells me that BT1 had more trust issues than I ever realized. I remember that boardtracker episode where everyone freaked out. With the internet you have to be careful, but take a chance on meeting a few great people in a caring community. Life is too short and there is much to gain from having a little trust in ppl.

[dorry]

[B]
This is a direct copy from Braintalks list of forums. Why some forums and not all?

The above is not true and hasn't been for a long time.

Something is weird here. You 'doc' offered to help John and when he did not reply you went ahead and took from his forum hils words and created this one.

He did not want your help nor did he ask for it. Yet you did it anyway. Why?

I think you copied his forums but when did you do it and how did you do it after the site went down.

You had to have done it before....................something is not right here.

huh? He didn't add all the forums? Where is this entitlement coming from?

DocJohn you are a patient man aren't you? lol

[stevem53]

Maybe it is simply a random act of kindness as Dr John says it is

[swift]

Welcome to the Brain Aneurysm Foundation's message board. This board is part of a partnership with "BrainTalk Communities" sponsored in part by the Massachusetts General Hospital's Department of Neurology.

This is a direct copy from Braintalks list of forums. Why some forums and not all?

The above is not true and hasn't been for a long time.

Something is weird here. You 'doc' offered to help John and when he did not reply you went ahead and took from his forum hils words and created this one.

I think you copied his forums but when did you do it and how did you do it after the site went down.

You had to have done it before....................something is not right here.

Gosh, conspiracies abound! The fact that whichever forum says that is indicative of the fact that DocJohn got the basic list of forums *after* BT2 went down, using the Wayback machine or webarchive (a simple google search will let you find those).

Swift

[ZombieSlayer]

The insinuation that BrainTalk crashed because of the mods retreat (or because nobody donated to it) is quite funny. I can say with 100% certainty that Mr. Lester wouldn't do that to the members of BrainTalk.

[paula_w]

I like Dorry's idea of introducing ourselves. I 'm a retired teacher [on disability] from the Parkinsons Forum, been at "MGH' now Braintalk since 1998. I have made dozens of friends here, and know what a small group of dedicated people can constructively accomplish.

We have an excellent forum, with few problems. It is restrictive though, and I don't like being scolded by moderators. [or anyone else if a dispute should arise]. I do not see any reason to tell another poster what to or not to post.

But in return, if you are going to cross the lines of decency to the point that someone has to complain - name calling, accusations, deliberate needling, etc. then you have to take what is measured out to you.

One of a PD patient's and of course many of the other patient conditions here is lack of motivation and energy. It is imperative that to keep living as 'normal' as possible a life [one where you get out of bed in the morning at least], to have the "synergy" of a 24 hour a day safe place.

But we must know, not just want to believe, that it is a safe place. Most places on the Internet are questionable and hatred, sexual harassment, and trolling are rampant.

This one feels safe, but the conditions behind the switch and John Lesters's behavior seem muddled. Maybe that isn't what's important, as long as this one is truly safe.

Put myself to sleep....back to bed.

Paula

[DocJohn]

Swift has it right -- I just went to archive.org and copied the list of the "biggest" forums (because there were so many and my time is a little limited), and their descriptions, and created BT2 from that. I admit I didn't read the descriptions in many cases, but will go back and edit anything inappropriate or inaccurate.

As for my purpose, it is as others have suspected... I have a *lot* of respect for online communities and have learned a lot from running them for the past 11 years. One of the things I've learned is that many, many people rely on them as literal lifelines to the outside world. You take away one of the only or few lifelines of a person and you can cause a lot of emotional pain.

As a psychologist, I can't help but look for ways to help people reduce their pain.

So when I see a community seemingly abandoned, with little regard for the daily support so many people appreciated and needed, and I can take some positive action to help, then I'll do it. It's just my nature.

John

[Wittesea]

With a site like BT things are a little different - MGH is definitely a well respected hospital which has been around a long time. A little less concern about misuse is obviously appropriate.


BT has not been affiliated with MGH in a number of years - and in fact the BT server has been housed in a hackers den for a few years.

So if you feel as if less concern is needed at BT (in a hacker den) that is your opinion. However, I personally feel much safer here where my IP address is not available to members of L0pht Heavy Industries (as it is on the BT servers).

[DocJohn]

Yup, it's a learning curve for all of us. I hope everyone takes this place as an opportunity to "start fresh," without bringing over a lot of the baggage from other places. And if some folks want to do that with a new username, that's fine by me.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll mention it here too -- of course there will be some guidelines for posting here, if these forums remain. But my main guideline has always been the same -- treat others the way you would like to be treated, remembering that there are live, feeling human beings behind these names.

John

[Rocking4Epilepsy]

Well Said Doc John

[Pamster]

Um....I was of the opinion that Hasty Pastry was a bakery in Boston. Does anyone have solid evidence that it was a "hacker's den", or is this just another wild rumor being repeated as fact?

DocJohn: thank you again for all you have done. :)

Ditto on both counts Granola Liberal. :)

[stevem53]

Um....I was of the opinion that Hasty Pastry was a bakery in Boston. Does anyone have solid evidence that it was a "hacker's den", or is this just another wild rumor being repeated as fact?

DocJohn: thank you again for all you have done. :)

I thought it was in Cambridge

[dorry]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L0pht#Founders

History

The L0pht was founded in 1992 as a location for its members to store their computer hardware and work on various projects. In time, the L0pht members quit their day jobs to form a business venture, named L0pht Heavy Industries. This hacker think tank released several security advisories and produced some widely-used software tools, like L0phtCrack (a password cracker for Windows NT).

In 1998, representatives from the L0pht famously testified before the Congress of the United States that they could shut down the entire Internet in 30 minutes.

In January 2000, L0pht Heavy Industries merged with the startup @stake, completing the L0pht's slow transition from an underground organization of dubious legality into a licit "whitehat" computer security company.

Symantec announced its acquisition of @stake on September 16, 2004, and completed the transaction on October 9 of that year.



Many computer geeks started out with an interest in hacking and migrated to security, because they realized how vulnerable systems are.

People are much more at risk from the information they freely post about their private lives online than any risk from hackers. There is a delicate balance between being open and revealing too much information. BT1 continually warned members that the forums were available to the public and web archives. It's everyones personal responsibility to follow that advice.

If you build a supportive, caring community that can vocalize and resolve their difficulties in a civil manner, you will have a healthy balance of people that will have little interest in trolling. When people gang up on others, that is when they are at risk from others wanting to know more about them from what you freely put out there in the past.

The best way to surf is to be considerate, civil and supportive. A community where your voice is as meaningful as the next persons is invaluable to keeping peace and creating an environment where everyone is equal. When cliques of abusive members are tolerated and encouraged, it leads to dissention. The best deterent is for members to self police themselves and use the ignore feature when available.

When I surf I try to avoid situations where I'll paint a bullseye on my forehead ;) It's something I learned through the years online, but was clueless as a newbie.

That's the best advice I can give, other than reserving really private information for PM's and email contacts with those that you trust, while keeping in mind that online communities are a haven for gossip and what you tell another privately will most likely make it to someone elses ears.

I support others that have changed their usernames to protect their identity when they are looking for a new beginning from past revelations they may have made from poor judgement. We are all guilty of doing that, and that's why it's important to allow people to edit their posts with no time limitation to remove personal information when needed.

Even if you were an SOB on the old forum, you are welcome to change your identity, hopefully along with your attitude if that's what you want. I've never met a perfect human being, so my standards are not very high. The only time I ever get upset online is when I see others mistreated and abused. I have zero tolerance for that.

If someone offends you and you fear they will edit their post, QUOTE their post in your reply and it will be there forever.

It's also wise to use a seperate username and email address for every online forum you go to, unless your identity is public information from business activities and you choose to divulge that. I am dorry here and nowhere else. People that I've cared to contact privately, know my identity, and I theirs.

I have no fear of DocJohn having my IP and email address. It's what I post that is far more damaging to my personal life, if I choose to make enemies online.

[anonymous]

Um....I was of the opinion that Hasty Pastry was a bakery in Boston. Does anyone have solid evidence that it was a "hacker's den", or is this just another wild rumor being repeated as fact?

Here are some links. Not sure how much info can be gleaned though. The last link is JL’s web page…

http://www.hastypastry.net/
http://zero.hastypastry.net/
http://zero.hastypastry.net/brain
http://zero.hastypastry.net/dojo/showthread.php?p=21620#post21620
http://zero.hastypastry.net/pathfinder/

[~scrabble]

dorry,

Thanks for the good advice.

[ZombieSlayer]

Here are some links. Not sure how much info can be gleaned though. The last link is JL’s web page…

http://www.hastypastry.net/
http://zero.hastypastry.net/
http://zero.hastypastry.net/brain
http://zero.hastypastry.net/dojo/showthread.php?p=21620#post21620
http://zero.hastypastry.net/pathfinder/

Not much is gleaned from those links and I could not find any proof of the previously mentioned rumor.

hannahbanana

Forgive me then for misunderstanding your post. To me that's how it read.

[DocJohn]

BT1 is at the IP address, 199.201.145.187.

A whois lookup on that IP address will show that it is owned by "L0pht Heavy Industries," which was a hacker group (see the above Wikipedia link):

http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=199.201.145.187

I'm not sure what that means, since the group is supposed to be defunct.

John

[ZombieSlayer]

Keyword being WAS.

Even if they still are a hacker group...the majority of people don't know what a hacker is so they should check this out.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker

So a "hackers den" isn't a "bad" thing.

[Thelma]

This is information that John himself put out on Braintalk even before he left MGH.

Nothing here ils new information he told everyone himself.

[Wittesea]

For the record - I never said I felt unsafe on the original BT, nor was I concerned about hackers and my IP address.

If I was concerned I would have stopped posting/participating in the original BT a long time ago when I discovered the L0pht Heavy connection with BT.

I was simply trying to point out 2 things.

1.) That BT and MGH parted ways quite a while ago when the server was moved to a new building.
2.) That it made no sense to feel unsafe here at BT2

I certainly was not trying to make anyone feel as if hackers were bad, or that hacker dens were a bad place for servers, or that BT1 is/was dangerous in any way.

Dorry is correct that the personal information we share in our posts is what we should be the most concerned about in regards to internet safety.

I was just sharing an opinion that I feel safer here at BT2.

I apologize if I caused any confusion.

[anonymous_no_more]

what more paranoia can we introduce into these threads?

Hackers! OMG! hide your credit cards! They're all around!:D

Sounds like someone is still tweeked that they didn't get to be a "braintalk nerd". :mad:

Are we now suggesting that because the BT server resides in, more likely "nerd think tank", [than a hacker's den] that we are to be paranoid of JLester and/or his motives?

Gimme a break. Anyone who strives to acheive anything of significance on computers knows that size, speed and power are of utmost importance. If his online community was no longer a priority of MGH, then "banding" up with a group of computer gurus with equipment, resources and cables is a smart thing to do. Sharing a T1 line makes absolute sense. This would allow him to have retain control, with less expense.

That it [BT] isn't a "perfect" world should not be a surprise. Although being offline for over a month is not the ideal...it is quite possibly the reality of the need to keep expenses low [even with donations]. IMHO

Again, as I stated earlier...JLester doesn't "owe" anyone anything. Yes, there is great value to an online support community, no argument there. NO, no one should build expectations of that online community offer the same resources/support/uptime as those that collect user fees. It just isn't a fair expectation, IMHO.

We can all have our opinions on how BT should be run (and we definitely do), but the reality is: why do we "expect" this Mr. Lester to make us his number one priority? Simply because he started it...doesn't mean that he must in the usual analogy, be father to it.

Should WE feel at all "entitled"?

Why do we expect one person to serve us all? (storage for all time, 100% uptime, speed at displaying messages, unlimited access, as well as a supportive atmosphere and a tolerance to all personality types; and "helpers" that can do no wrong in mediating and technical support)

You now have another "support" avenue here, that I am assuming can do better. Enjoy. Hope you don't "muck" this one up as well (adds to overhead, depletes resources).

Again, this is just my POV.

[dahlek]

If it is, will we use the site any less? Think on it. What sources of discontent I've tried to summarize in a prior post. As for content, and security of same.. well any poster's name IS OUT THERE...just 'web' it up! How much you put into your profile or posts, and how easily accessable they are are different issues.

I for one, would LOOOVE to have docs read posts about how WE feel and interact with them..pros/cons.[as long as MY doc doesn't recognize ME?] On the other hand, I would HATE to have some 'research team' ANALYSE posts without history[out of overall context], permission and all the details we LEAVE OUT - ON PURPOSE. I DO NOT WANT TO BE A LAB RAT UNLESS IT IS SPECIFICALLY DETAILED IN THE SIGN-ON/UP AND SHOULD ANY QUOTES BE USED WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE IN SOMEONE'S FUTURE RESEARCH PAPER WITHOUT MY EDITORIAL BLESSING!!! Lurking is one thing, research w/o remuneration & acknowledgement to the source provider and validation/permission from the poster is another. BT Could Die..-maintain status-quo...-or thrive. It is now up to the leadership and the board's leadership where to go. Should either site be exploited as long as for positive purposes, I mite buy it....or go quiet. 'Bout now, I'm betting some wish I would...go quiet, that is... hey, Let's go on, complete with holes in the road. Flat tires or not...we go on. - j
A quote comes to mind now: If nothing is said, you cannot be mis-quoted.

[paula_w]

While everything you say makes sense, there is something else to be considered here and that is the mission and philosophy behind John Ls doing this.

Wasn't it called Patients as Partners? Who remembers? Anyway, my point is that John doesn't owe us anything, but he created something that is bordering on TREATMENT. One could argue that this forum and due to the success of it, has become a vital need for some or alot of, actually, people's mental health with all kinds of various conditions.

Abrupt withdrawal is not good; we should have been and still should be better informed.

two cents,
Paula

[moose53]

--snip--
Are we now suggesting that because the BT server resides in, more likely "nerd think tank", [than a hacker's den] that we are to be paranoid of JLester and/or his motives?


The original BrainTalk forums were located on Massachusetts General Hospital property and "validated" by the hospital because of that physical location and because a hospital employee had created and was maintaining the forums. Massachusetts General is one of the top teaching hospitals in the world -- its name speaks volumes.

To have the servers move from there to a hacker's space (http://tinyurl.com/ncnej) -- darn straight I'm concerned. I, personally, am not paranoid -- too much life experience for that.

My concern is that a NON-PROFIT organization that's been receiving funds from some of its members/contributors is stashed in a hacker's space while the creator/overseer of the servers and overseer of the non-profit organization is continually not available and doesn't even work in the state anymore.

Before I retired, I worked in the computer support field for close to 14 years. I do not buy that a server can crash so badly that it's not recoverable in more than 6 weeks. I do not buy that it takes weeks to get new installation disks. I have gone through a similar experience. The server crashed badly because the air conditioning was not working -- something we did not know. The server crashed after my boss went on an extended vacation. I had no experience at all with the new server -- didn't even know how to login yet -- it was that new. I got in touch with peers and with the vendor and had the server back up and running within days -- not weeks. This was a server that was actually damaged by an overheated room.

I'm concerned with the images that I see on the root of the hasty-pastry server. They're not porno; they're just not appropriate for a non-profit organization. I'm concerned with the images on the virtual reality that is tied to hasty-pastry; again not porno -- but not appropriate.

I won't go back to BT1 (the original BrainTalk) unless it gets sold or the management changes. Because the level of commitment that should be demonstrated toward fragile human beings is not there.

An entity such as BrainTalk.org with the number of individuals who rely on it for research or for companionship or for support during horrendously difficult times ... an entity that has the reputation that BrainTalk.org has accrued over the years from medical professionals ALL OVER THE WORLD...deserves better than "I'll fix it when I come back from my trip".

A non-profit organization that has grown to be such a huge part of people's lives needs to have plans in place for emergencies:

- what do you do if the server crashes??
- what do you do if the one person in charge gets injured or dies??
- what do you do if the one person who is in charge is out of the country for a month when problems arise??

There should be back-up individuals in case any of the above circumstances happen (G-d forbid). Obviously, there is not.

That's my humble opinion.

Barb

[dorry]

Keyword being WAS.

Even if they still are a hacker group...the majority of people don't know what a hacker is so they should check this out.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker

So a "hackers den" isn't a "bad" thing.

Got that right ZS. Most make great computer techs ;)

[dorry]

An entity such as BrainTalk.org with the number of individuals who rely on it for research or for companionship or for support during horrendously difficult times ... an entity that has the reputation that BrainTalk.org has accrued over the years from medical professionals ALL OVER THE WORLD...deserves better than "I'll fix it when I come back from my trip".

Sums it up pretty well. I thought with the outpouring of financial support after the last major crash, John said he had so much extra $ donated that he was going to upgrade everything so in the future things like this would be a non-event. Guess I thought wrong.

The weeks for disks is a real hoot :cool:

[DocJohn]

Me too.

I think there's a disconnect between the community that went so far as to create a nonprofit org for itself, and the people who actually run that org (and through the org, the actual website). If one creates an org, one would think, it is to ensure the community -- first and foremost -- is up and running. And if it goes down, it gets back up in a timely manner (e.g., days, not months).

If the org can't minimally do that, I don't see the purpose of it. There's no great science or art to running a large online community. It just takes a leased server and some folks who want to help out.

John

[anonymous_no_more]

We're in a loop...

BT @ hacker's den = not appropriate;
but, we don't want moderators, and big brother running the show if BT is transferred to a "real" organization and wouldn't tolerate the crap that occurs on a daily basis; run perhaps like "healthboards" where I have never seen so much moderation and banning...

BT took donations and yet, servers crash = not believable, not good;
and yet, we want small town management that allows us to bicker, battle, denigrate other posters (as well as receive kindness, support, and offer same to others)...*

BT associates with virtual reality world = huh? (although it is noted that some of this virtual reality world allows those with disabilities another type of outlet, especially if they would rather distract themselves from their medical problems, than roll in their "issues")

Again, why hang around with all these negatives? I am just not following the logic.

Anyone who donates anything, to anyone via internet is doing it of free will. Donating does not grant "shares" in the direction of a vehicle, even though it may be desired.

Donating to a person, especially that is no longer associated with the hospital/organization that once gave it "validity" [in that person's eye] takes us back to: huh?

See? a loop. We ask and answer our own questions and concerns all at once.

It has been known for some time that this is a lone ranger organization. If we give, we give with the hopes that it will help. If it hasn't amounted to what we had hoped...time to move on.

If JLester isn't doing what you think is appropriate, whether it be in the location of its servers, or by the fact that he is no longer associated with MGH, then, my goodness, find another board that offers what you need.

*I have a feeling that this issue is more an inability to devote the time required to support/maintain BT, than it is a mere long, drawn out software/hardware crash (as I was sure MACs are supposed to be bitchin OSs w/hardware that never crashes).

The wonderful thing about this thread is that, by now, I am sure that this JLester "hack" will have been made fully aware of all the "issues" surrounding BT. Let's see if he responds.;)

[anonymous_no_more]

Me too.

I think there's a disconnect between the community that went so far as to create a nonprofit org for itself, and the people who actually run that org (and through the org, the actual website). If one creates an org, one would think, it is to ensure the community -- first and foremost -- is up and running. And if it goes down, it gets back up in a timely manner (e.g., days, not months).

If the org can't minimally do that, I don't see the purpose of it. There's no great science or art to running a large online community. It just takes a leased server and some folks who want to help out.

John


exactly. why spend so much time trying to change something that appears to be immovable? move on. isn't this new site [BT2] doing exactly what everyone wanted BT to be?

Those that want BT, will remain, those that have paranoia, fear, concerns and some moral anger, should remain here (or somewhere else).

why continue to beat one's head against a brick wall? oh, I'm guilty of that in responding to these threads...gotta run.

[Thelma]

If JLester isn't doing what you think is appropriate, whether it be in the location of its servers, or by the fact that he is no longer associated with MGH, then, my goodness, find another board that offers what you need.




There is no other board that can match or add up to the one John has built 'doc' has just seen an opportunity to wean off some of the members with a look alike site that has much more leniency than the members heer even want.

He could have had a matching site of his own at any time in all the years Braintalk has been going.

He never showed any kind of sympathy for the members ther till he saw john having a problem.

If you buy the kindness and caring attitude then you will have a surprise when he finds all of the trouble on his doorstep.

Then the rules will change in a minute.

All of the rules had to be placed on the BT1 site because of the members and their actions.

None of them applied when I first started and we did a petition on it that went to DC with far less trouble than you can imagine given the last couple of years.

You need to think twice 'doc' because the site over there took years and years to build. It sure is not perfect but it is the best on the market and hopefullly it is not for sale.

So many have advice and think they can do it but you believe me you would have wilted 'doc' if you had of had to take what John took.

I have been to many sites since I have gotten sick and read till I am blue in the face all of them and the comments they are making. Some true and some unbelievable riddled with untruths and downright fiction.

It is my honest opinion that this site should close and if you still want to do it do it the right way.........on your own........ with your own and not in spite of all your protestations otherwise.

You put on your other site an invite to help John and he did not respond. Yet you did it anyway. Seems to me you didn't mean it to help John as much as yourself.

That is the way it appears to me anyway.

No offence meant

[moose53]

((((((Thelma)))))), I'm so glad to see you posting again.

I've told you before -- and I'll say it again -- you've been an absolute treasure to BrainTalk.org. I've seen you supporting people on a lot of different forums. We need many more like you.



I, for one, am glad that this little forum has been here for the past week or so.

A place to re-connect to people that we truly care about.

A place to discuss everyone's viewpoint. I'm glad that a lot of us have been able to air our concerns in a civilized environment. The best way to solve problems is to brainstorm -- I feel like we've been able to do that here.

I don't fault anyone for their viewpoint. I appreciate the people that feel the same way that I do. But, mine is only one point of view from a viewpoint that's colored by my history (and, I suppose also by my baggage).

I heard something the other day on TV -- a preview of one of those shows that's going to try to help couples reconnect. It's a phrase for people that are not seeing the same side of an argument or of a disagreement:

"That's OK."

Each say that to the other and then start your discussions from there.

For me, everything that I've heard/read is OK. I can understand the reasons behind everything that's been said here. It's all *OK* :)

I had disconnected myself quite a bit from BT1 before it went down. More involved in getting my business going. I did like to check in once in awhile though. It's hard to believe for someone that's just joined an online community. But, you really do learn to truly care about and love the people that you come in contact with frequently. I hung around the Child Neuro forum 'cause I like kids and I like to do research. Before I ever knew what hit me, I was "in love" with all the great kids and felt connected to the parents and grandparents.

I don't think BrainTalk.org will ever disappear. I think it will change and grow and become something even more impressive that what it was before. All of us who have contributed financially and spiritually and emotionally to that growth and change will be part of whatever it becomes.

I don't think BrainTalk.org and John Lester has anything to fear from this little forum being here for now so that people that care about each other can stay connected.

Bless you all. Hugs.

Barb

[anonymous_no_more]

((((Thelma and Moose))))

Now, that's the spirit. We bend, we flex, and understanding/acceptance is right around the corner.

There's plenty of "internet" for everyone. For those that want to build a better BT, there won't be any words that can keep them from their duty...however that is achieved.

Doesn't always require a financial investment [for those that don't have that ability]. Can be as simple as staying out of the fray, using the ignore button when applicable, and continuing to build support by "supporting" a non-hostile, online environment.

For those that simply log on, dump their unhappiness, and run...they will come and go. :eek:

[clouds z]

i like to email whole pages to my fastmail.fm email and then i can archive emails and they get into winzip files and take up little space

www.fastmail.fm

free account

then i delete them from email but ive saved them to harddrive

[clouds z]

i use outlook express to email them

[annie]

People keep referring to MSers as "fragile." Personally I am not "fragile." I recognize that some people are, but most of us are ordinary people who happen to have MS. We are not "fragile."

How many people here consider themselves to be "fragile." THEMSELVES, not others?

actually this would make for an interesting poll. since i was worrying about fragile posters in another thread i suppose i owe an explanation of what i really meant.

physically i am definitely fragile. i am elderly, crippled by a drunk driver for fifty years, and constant falls and my new Deep Vein Thrombosis make daily living pretty scary.

neurologically i am fragile. constant seizures, i never know when i am going to get on the wrong bus or burn the house down. my brain is simply not reliable.

financially i am fragile. the average monthly rent in my low income area for a single room is more than the minimum monthly SSI. fortunately i have a lot of credit, but one large vet bill could make me and the cat homeless.

emotionally? NAAAAAH. i am very tough emotionally. no family but blessed with friends. not at all fragile emotionally.

one out of four ain't bad.

[moose53]

I LOVE you, ((((((Annie)))))). You're such a breath of fresh air :cool:


It's taken me a lifetime and a TON of hurt to finally be able to acknowledge that yeah, sometimes I am fragile.

I'm emotionally fragile when I hear about/read about too many babies and children and young people dying too early.

I'm fragile when I don't get enough sleep and the big ole' fibromyalgia turns around and kicks me in the @$$.

I'm fragile when I stop and allow myself to realize that it'll be 40 years next month since my Brother committed suicide.

Yeah, sometimes I'm extremely fragile.

Other times, it's taken me a lifetime to learn (and to accept) how strong I really am. If I have to, I can face anything. Because the worst has already happened.

We all have many facets -- which is why I think we all have something in common with JEWELS. You whack a diamond in the right way and you can break it -- yet, it's one of the strongest materials around.

I don't mind admitting that I'm fragile sometimes. And I don't mind giving another a hand up when I'm not so fragile. (BUT, I still find it hard to accept people opening doors for me when I'm using the cane or the scooter :p )

BIG HUGS.

Barb

[DocJohn]

Hi 'Thelma,' I'm not sure how running forums out of my own pocket "helps me" in any way. I did it as a community service. (Believe it or not; it makes no difference to me.)

If I was watching a carpenter build a house and he ran out of nails, and I had a box of nails on me, I'd give him the box of the nails. I wouldn't just say, "Oh well, none of my business." Some people would, and that's fine. But it's not fine for me to do that.

John

[Curious]

so doc...i'm making choccy chip cookies.....i'm a tad short on choccy chips :eek: ( i know....who's a thunk it huh? )....got any extra in your desk? :p

i like what you have built here. yep. i like it just fine. i've peaked over at phych central too. awesome!

[DocJohn]

I wish I had some choco chips around!! Of course, if I did, I'd probably eat them...!

[Thelma]

'doc'

When you take starting this site to that level of handing a man nails when he needed them it makes you sound very kind and caring.

But when you had no contact with the man and you then decided to take the hammer and your nails and build a house across the road almost the same as his what would you expect him to do.

He paid a lot in time and effort to build his house and now because of a shortage of nails you have decided to upsurt him.

Could you have not reached him in some way because as you have said he lives or works, I forget eactly what you said, just down the street from you.

Walk over and ask him personallly.

You didn't ask anyone and that is my problem with all the protestations of caring and concern which to me is a misnomer.

Sorry but that is what you get for talking to me lol

[farside]

'doc'

When you take starting this site to that level of handing a man nails when he needed them it makes you sound very kind and caring.

But when you had no contact with the man and you then decided to take the hammer and your nails and build a house across the road almost the same as his what would you expect him to do.

He paid a lot in time and effort to build his house and now because of a shortage of nails you have decided to upsurt him.

Could you have not reached him in some way because as you have said he lives or works, I forget eactly what you said, just down the street from you.

Walk over and ask him personallly.

You didn't ask anyone and that is my problem with all the protestations of caring and concern which to me is a misnomer.

Sorry but that is what you get for talking to me lol

It was very nice of DocJohn to try to reach John at all. Why are you saying he didn't try hard enough?

I for one appreciate him stepping into the gap to help out all the stranded BTer's. Why are you giving him such a hard time Thelma? You sound suspicious when it should be clear to any and all that he did a REALLY nice thing here, with no ill intent or malice or anything but altruistic motives to help us all. Why does he need to constantly explain himself to you?

He doesn't deserve this constant barrage from you Thelma. He's explained himself over and over again as a result of your accusations and suspicions. This man deserves a medal, not criticisms. He stepped INTO the gap when one became apparent to him. He didn't have to do it, I can't imagine any professional "accolades" that he'll receive for spending his time to do it. I just can't fathom any reason except generosity towards all of us.

Give it a rest please Thelma? He doesn't deserve this constant attack and nitpicking questioning his motives.

He's a good guy, he showed it by his actions. No explanation necessary. As far as I'm concerned we owe him a huge THANK YOU, not to cast his actions under a cloud of suspicion.

[clouds z]

actually this would make for an interesting poll. since i was worrying about fragile posters in another thread i suppose i owe an explanation of what i really meant.

physically i am definitely fragile. i am elderly, crippled by a drunk driver for fifty years, and constant falls and my new Deep Vein Thrombosis make daily living pretty scary.

neurologically i am fragile. constant seizures, i never know when i am going to get on the wrong bus or burn the house down. my brain is simply not reliable.

financially i am fragile. the average monthly rent in my low income area for a single room is more than the minimum monthly SSI. fortunately i have a lot of credit, but one large vet bill could make me and the cat homeless.

emotionally? NAAAAAH. i am very tough emotionally. no family but blessed with friends. not at all fragile emotionally.

one out of four ain't bad.



i hate drunk drivers -sorry you got hit

breath test is zero allowed in slovakia
if we lived there we may have normal lives

mountains ,accordian music, and beer but no drunk driving

usa has turned to hell on earth-then again there are lots of nice people who will help- some hope is out there

[Thelma]

Should be obvious by now. Why are you here? Why are any of us here?

And the really important question is why does it matter to anyone?

[dorry]

I get the impression that some ppl are worried that others might just like this forum better. Who cares who goes back to BT or stays here?

With the touted "bazillion" members over there, I seriously doubt awol members will make a dent.

The disks were supposed to arrive yesterday, so it should be 'any day now' :D

This is just the kind of place I've been looking for. Works for me. If it's not your cup of tea, that works for me too.

And I am sick of the inneudos to docjohn's motives AND that we all need "counseling" because we prefer here. LMAO!!

I think it speaks for the fact that many of us are not co-dependent on any website. We're adults and can make choices all by ourselves. Quite a concept.

[DocJohn]

'Thelma,' ummm, I did ask. I even asked our shared colleagues. All I got was silence in response.

[indigogo]

When I click on the BT1 site, the message page is gone - only blank.

Wonder if this means they are working on it?

[moose53]

Should be obvious by now. Why are you here? Why are any of us here?

And the really important question is why does it matter to anyone?




It's OK, ((((((Thelma)))))).

I wish "they'd" let you be. But, that's like trying to control someone else's environment -- I learned a long time ago--can't do that...my Daddy actually taught me that you should hang all the coat hangers in the same direction so you could grab your clothes and get out fast in case there was a fire.

Well...it took my neighbors getting burned out to realize that nobody gives a dang about the clothes. We had enough trouble getting a baby, a toddler, a woman with severe MD and a bed-ridden old man out -- nobody gave one hoot about the dang clothes.

Whether you believe it or not, Thelma, SOME OF US recognize the hurt and wish you weren't hurting and wish we could help.

THAT'S why we care. Bless you dear Lady.

Barb http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/holding-hands.gif

[Mizz Piglet]

It was very nice of DocJohn to try to reach John at all. Why are you saying he didn't try hard enough?

I for one appreciate him stepping into the gap to help out all the stranded BTer's. Why are you giving him such a hard time Thelma? You sound suspicious when it should be clear to any and all that he did a REALLY nice thing here, with no ill intent or malice or anything but altruistic motives to help us all. Why does he need to constantly explain himself to you?

He doesn't deserve this constant barrage from you Thelma. He's explained himself over and over again as a result of your accusations and suspicions. This man deserves a medal, not criticisms. He stepped INTO the gap when one became apparent to him. He didn't have to do it, I can't imagine any professional "accolades" that he'll receive for spending his time to do it. I just can't fathom any reason except generosity towards all of us.

Give it a rest please Thelma? He doesn't deserve this constant attack and nitpicking questioning his motives.

He's a good guy, he showed it by his actions. No explanation necessary. As far as I'm concerned we owe him a huge THANK YOU, not to cast his actions under a cloud of suspicion.

I whole heartedly agree with Farside and many others here that have camped out on DocJohn's doorstep. Look at all the postings since BT1 went down. There are more positives than negatives. People need a safe haven to flock to and this is what many have done here on BT2. Thelma, why are you so down on DocJohn? Has he hurt you? He owes you no explanation. Let it go. What efforts have you made to contact JL?
I personally tried and so have others and no responses. What are we to think? Get a grip. I think you owe the Doc an apology. He has let you in his campsite and your still roasting your marshmellows. When and if BT1 returns you can hop right over there. No one is keeping you here. No one is keeping anyone here. The choice is yours.

[Curious]

When I click on the BT1 site, the message page is gone - only blank.

Wonder if this means they are working on it?

i just checked...got the same message dated 8/24/06

[stumps]

i just checked...got the same message dated 8/24/06

I have been getting the blank white screen since early morning UK time, now late evening still the blank screen, so approx 12 hours so far in that state of nothing.

[DocJohn]

Since BT and John Lester's motives have been attacked repeatedly here, why would it be inappropriate to do the same for this site where at least the people are present to respond?

I'm not sure anyone has "attacked" JL/BT1's *motives* so much as expressing frustration with the lack of communication, reliability, and a *seeming* disregard for the seriousness of the responsibility they have undertaken. Notice I choose my words very carefully, because I don't want to be misunderstood or generalized into "attacking" someone's "motives." I, to this day, believe that JL and BT1 had nothing but the best motives in all the world in running BT1. I just get a feeling (and I may be entirely wrong) that it doesn't take a priority in his life to ensure they're running smoothly. As I've said many times, that's fine. Just be honest with the community, communicate with them regularly, and if possible, find other resources to help you out.

John

[Steve]

John Lester tonight on the street, walking into a restaurant! I was tempted to ask him what was up, but I didn't want to scare him off. He doesn't know me, but I recognize him from his pictures on the Web.

[ZombieSlayer]

I don't know if there is any truth in this.

Ok is that clear? Hope so ;) :D

I got an email (actually quite a few) from people who were in BrainTalks chat rooms sometime yesterday evening. Chat Moderator #1 came on and said that Mr. Lester plans on having the forums up sometime during the weekend and that the discs did arrive on time.

Again, I don't know if this is true or a rumor....but it's the latest news I've heard.

Posted here since the question was raised.

[Bobbi]

That's clear, ZombieS. - and thank you for sharing what the CM stated :D.

[annie]

Hi, Annie,

I assume that when people are talking about "fragile" here, they mean emotionally, since this, or any forum, can't make financially, physically, or neurologically fragility any worse or better..

people on this forum have most certainly made my fragility better.

barabara the moose has several times found important financial resources for me. health care resources, housing. once she found a program for me so that i don't pay anything for my medicare, no premiums. believe me that helped my financial fragility.

liam on the social security disability forum on BT1 answered many questions for me on social security, as he did for anyone who posted there. several people were made homeless over problems with social security. liam has prevented much financial fragility for people applying for social security disability.

in epilepsy we have frequent threads on solving physical problems. usually there is a thread running on how to live around seizures. the two most helpful posters on how to cook without burning the house down are howdydave and david hosobuchi (firehorse) both of whom have had amazing burns caused by cooking during seizures. there is also help on taking showers, driving, many other activities directly impacted by seizures. many posters have helpful information on how to function physically.

in the computer forum here you will find a thread with dorry and zombie slayer helping me to get rid of flash on my new computer. i have photosensitive seizures and flash triggers them. they spent a great deal of time solving my problem. because they have helped me many times in the past to set my computer so that it doesn't trigger so many seizures, i panicked when i got the new computer and braintalk was down, i depend on them for help solving physical problems. don't get much more physical than a computer.

on this forum in another thread curious is offerring me her health club expertise on both exercise for the physically fragile and diet for the hum digestively fragile.

many of the posters in the epilepsy forum take meds and/or have had surgery and/or use a vns. we have many discussions on the pros and cons of these, as well as alternative medicine solutions for our neurological fragility. there is always someone to help a new surgical candidate thru the experience and explain what everything means.

we all also do a lot of educating. sue directly teachs in schools about epilepsy. rocking4epilepsy has an epilepsy awareness organization which helps children and adults. we all talk to people and try to explain epilepsy. we all try to help others with our same neurological fragility, because in this situation knowledge is what makes us less fragile.



I expect that lots of people on MS forums are fiancialy, physically and/or neurologically fragile, but I assume the postings issues have to deal with emotionally/psychologically fragile.

in order to solve a problem you must first define it.

i haven't read on the MS forum. but maybe if you looked around on the other forums you would find many people actively solving the problems of financial, physical, and neurological fragility.

and of course my solution for emotional fragility is very obvious: hugs and chocolate.

[artist]

What a lovely message, Annie.

Heart-warming, thank you.

all the best.

[indigogo]

Annie -

Your post is one of the best I've ever read on BrainTalk - old or new!

Cheers to you!

[~scrabble]

Way to go, Annie!

I'm glad you have been able to find so much support and assistance at BT.

Thank you for sharing.