I've been saying something about B12 a bit wrong -

[ConsiderThis]

Hi,

I just realized that I've been saying something about B12 replacement therapy a bit wrong.

I just realized that when someone uses Methylcobalamin lozenges for replacement, that it requires a whole month of taking them every day before it equals B12 shots.

While it is true that a 1,000 mcg Methylcobalamin lozenge a day (for a month) is about equal to one B12 shot a month, what I forget when I'm talking about how quickly you will see and feel results, is that at least a whole month of using the lozenges must go by.

When I tried to switch to lozenges from shots, I experienced my B12 symptoms radically increasing.

I had to go back to shots immediately.

I now begin to see that had I not had injectable cobalamin to go back to, and if I had continued using the sublinguals, I probably would have had an easing off of symptoms after a month or two.

The thing was, however, that I was having a shot a day at that time, and I was not using 6 of the 5mg sublinguals a day. So even after a month or two, I would not have been getting as much B12 replacement as I was having by using injections.

I'm writing this because I've often written about how effective B12 is, and that if someone has ridges on their fingernails and loss of moons, and also has other symptoms of low B12, and they begin using Methylcobalamin lozenges they will have noticeable changes for the better in a few weeks.

That's my mistake, it would be a few weeks if they were having injections, but with the lozenges it will take at least a month or two because of the gradual way that they work.

I hope this is clear.

I should add that one of the reasons it's good to keep an eye on your fingernails, is that the ridges reduce in size and begin to go away, but not overnight. In the last ten years of B12 replacement therapy, the huge thick ridges that I had are nearly entirely gone on many of my fingernails, but on some are reduced in size, not gone.

[rose]

Actually, it is quite common for people low in B12 to have an obvious response to oral B12 within days to a couple of weeks. Several days is quite common. It is absolutely not the case that it takes at least a month or two.

As a matter of fact, even if one were using the far less efficient cyanocobalamin orally, the response would usually be in far less time than that.

It is more complicated than it sounds. The dose one gets with a shot of cyanocobalamin must be converted to usable B12, and then a portion of that smaller amount is stored or used, and the balance goes out with the urine.

One who malabsorbs severely does get a smaller amount with a day's oral dose of 1000 mcg, but it is taken every day and there is not the gap between doses (most generally a month when being treated by a physician). The person taking an oral dose is being exposed to B12 every day and has an opportunity every day to store some.

And, when methylcobalamin is taken there is no need for the body to convert, so more is delivered.

In addition to all of that, there are individual differences. A person who does better on shots over the long run would be rare.

rose

[ConsiderThis]

I think the operative element here is the amount of B12.

Clearly a shot a day for a month is a lot more B12 than one 1,000 mcg B12 lozenge a day for a month.

It is my feeling that people who have replenished their B12 supplies using lozenges, and who have had episodes when things stopped improving and instead got worse, were feeling the effects of some temporary additional drain on their B12, like a particular stress, and that had they realized the connection, they could have upped the amount they were taking with beneficial results.

[Mcharris]

I have been reading all the posts about B12 deficiency....... and wondered if you could point me to a website/reference that shows moons and ridges are damaged/missing with B12 deficiency? I have pictures of my thumbs and fingers if anyone can 'read' them.

Also I am curious if anyone has had Hcy and MMA testing done? I truly believe that I may well be seriously B12 deficient even with a reading of 500+

I have given myself a B12 injection .... one every other day (3 in all) these last few days but seem to get worse symptoms after each injection. Symptoms like a sore tongue, extreme chilling coldness, headache, pounding in my chest........ this is most frightening. Anyone care to speculate?

Thanks for listening.

Clare in Tasmania

[rose]

Karen,

Again, it appears that you are a very rare case, if that is what happened to you. And you should do what you feel is right for you.

Certainly some people store B12 very badly, and you may store so badly that you need a shot a day. I will not dispute that, as there is a rare exception to most rules.

However, the possibility of anyone here having that situation and benefitting more from a shot a day of cyanocobalamin than a daily methylcobalamin is about as likely than being hit by lightning today.

What you refer to as getting worse has been explain repeatedly here as the healing process, whether with cyanocobalamin, hydroxocobalamin or methylcobalasmin. When one has been damaged badly, there is no guarantee that improvement will happen at all. For most people, the regular dose of usable B12 (methylcobalamin), as opposed to cyanocobalamin that must be converted to methylcobalamin, optimizes the possibility of improvement.

rose

[rose]

Hi Clare,

Yes, some people have been shown to be deficient with B12 levels higher than that. It is not common, unless one has begun getting some B12 and that is being measured in the blood, but it does happen. Usual people who are elderly, but I know one who was shown deficient (with MMA) while well over 500, and she was in her 40s.

I will speculate that either you are benefitting from the B12 injections and experiencing temporary worsening of symptoms or you are sensitive to some other substance in the injected product.

Your fingernails may or may not benefit from more B12, but they do not diagnose or rule out B12 deficiency.

rose

[ConsiderThis]

I have been reading all the posts about B12 deficiency....... and wondered if you could point me to a website/reference that shows moons and ridges are damaged/missing with B12 deficiency? I have pictures of my thumbs and fingers if anyone can 'read' them.

Also I am curious if anyone has had Hcy and MMA testing done? I truly believe that I may well be seriously B12 deficient even with a reading of 500+

I have given myself a B12 injection .... one every other day (3 in all) these last few days but seem to get worse symptoms after each injection. Symptoms like a sore tongue, extreme chilling coldness, headache, pounding in my chest........ this is most frightening. Anyone care to speculate?

Thanks for listening.

Clare in Tasmania
Mcharris

I can't see the pictures very well on my computer screen. They are very little.

Did you go to my site? I have some large images of my fingernailss over a period of time, and some show how they look when the infection I have in my jaw flares.

Your tongue may be sore because you are short of other B vitamins in addition to B12. It's good to take a Mega B of some sort while you are having B12 replacement.

I don't know about that chest thing. I had it badly this spring and again this summer after some intense stress. I stayed in bed, and I found that B12 shots helped, but it was weeks before it resolved, and yes, it was very scary.

Are you taking a mullti with all the Bs in it along with your B12 shots? A swollen or very red tongue can be a sign of low B vitamins.

Stick with it. Remember, when you are very low on B12 it isn't something that one shot or even three in three days can repair..

A 500 level for a blood B12 test is still lower than the low normal in Japan and some other countries. I have a great article on my site about how the low in Japan is 550 because that's the level at which changes for the worse in cognition can be seen.

I still haven't found the great article I have someplace on how if a spinal tap is done to test, then the level for Methylmalonic can be 600 times lower than the other tests for it... I think that's it.

What that basically says is that the blood can rapidly change to look way more healthy than we actually are, deeper inside out bodies.

I hope you get a mega B if you aren't taking one already, and I hope you stick with the shots... no pun intended. :)

[ConsiderThis]

Karen,

Again, it appears that you are a very rare case, if that is what happened to you. And you should do what you feel is right for you.

Certainly some people store B12 very badly, and you may store so badly that you need a shot a day. I will not dispute that, as there is a rare exception to most rules.

However, the possibility of anyone here having that situation and benefitting more from a shot a day of cyanocobalamin than a daily methylcobalamin is about as likely than being hit by lightning today.

What you refer to as getting worse has been explain repeatedly here as the healing process, whether with cyanocobalamin, hydroxocobalamin or methylcobalasmin. When one has been damaged badly, there is no guarantee that improvement will happen at all. For most people, the regular dose of usable B12 (methylcobalamin), as opposed to cyanocobalamin that must be converted to methylcobalamin, optimizes the possibility of improvement.

rose

Rose,
Isn't this site for people who do have unusual health circumstances?
If it is, as I believe it is, then my experience may not be rare in this community.

I understand that you think it is a normal part of the healing process to get worse, I disagree with you.

In my experience I always improved except when there were additional stresses and then I got worse until after I increased the amount of B12 replacement I was having to handle the drains from the additional stress.

In terms of your "lightning" analogy, you are wrong. You have no data to indicate that is even remotely true.

You have been writing to people in the peripheral neuropathy forum for years, and many of them still have the same pain levels I had but which went away after I had a shot a day for several months while I had tetanus.

It does a disservice to people to encourage them to take less B12. What people need to do is find the right amount for themselves by recording their symptoms, their shots, and the changes in their symptoms.

Please show me some medical, scientific research that explains how people who are taking B12 get worse as a part of the healing process.

[ConsiderThis]

Hi Clare,

Yes, some people have been shown to be deficient with B12 levels higher than that. It is not common, unless one has begun getting some B12 and that is being measured in the blood, but it does happen. Usual people who are elderly, but I know one who was shown deficient (with MMA) while well over 500, and she was in her 40s.

I will speculate that either you are benefitting from the B12 injections and experiencing temporary worsening of symptoms or you are sensitive to some other substance in the injected product.

Your fingernails may or may not benefit from more B12, but they do not diagnose or rule out B12 deficiency.

rose


It's important to remember that one doesn't take B12 to improve one's fingernails, one takes B12 (Methylcobalamin or shots or Hydroxycobalamin) to improve the health of one's body, to include parts of it that we cannot see but which are reflected in the health and appearance of our fingernails.

[ConsiderThis]

I have been reading all the posts about B12 deficiency....... and wondered if you could point me to a website/reference that shows moons and ridges are damaged/missing with B12 deficiency? I have pictures of my thumbs and fingers if anyone can 'read' them.

Also I am curious if anyone has had Hcy and MMA testing done? I truly believe that I may well be seriously B12 deficient even with a reading of 500+

I have given myself a B12 injection .... one every other day (3 in all) these last few days but seem to get worse symptoms after each injection. Symptoms like a sore tongue, extreme chilling coldness, headache, pounding in my chest........ this is most frightening. Anyone care to speculate?

Thanks for listening.

Clare in Tasmania
Hi again, Clare,
I've looked as hard as I can at your images, and I think that it's possible they show that you don't have ridges on your nails... is that true? And they show that you only have moons on your thumbs? is that right?

I don't quite understand the difference between what the two things show... but I do know that my ridges reduces in size and went nearly away before my moons began to reappear, and I also know some people with exceptionally bad ridges who function great in their jobs... I had a hard time functioning because of my memory problems and problems related to the peripheral neuropathy that I had.

Do look at the photos on my site. They are pretty clear. Quite a few people with sites have asked me if they can use them, so you may well see them on other sites, as well. But of course I think my site has the best explanations. :)

[rose]

What I suggested is that it is almost surely better for people to take the daily dose of the best form of B12 (methylcobalamin) rather than a daily dose of the least efficient form (cyanocobalamin).

rose

[rose]

Karen's point about other nutrients is an important one. It has been mentioned many times, but it is worth mentioning again.

When one is low in B12, and that person begins to get the B12 they need, if they are also low in one or more other nutrients and the body begins drawing heavily on those nutrients to make repairs, there can be additional or worsening even beyond that of the common process of healing.

Iron and potassium are two frequently drawn upon heavily, but others are important too.

rose

[Curious]

karen,

click on the actual picture that mcharris posted. they will open on another screen larger than the thumbnail pictures that were posted.

[ConsiderThis]

karen,

click on the actual picture that mcharris posted. they will open on another screen larger than the thumbnail pictures that were posted.

Oh, silly me! I never even thought of that. I was going to take them to my computer and use my photo program to enlarge them, but I didn't have time.

Thanks!

[ConsiderThis]

I have been reading all the posts about B12 deficiency....... and wondered if you could point me to a website/reference that shows moons and ridges are damaged/missing with B12 deficiency? I have pictures of my thumbs and fingers if anyone can 'read' them.

Also I am curious if anyone has had Hcy and MMA testing done? I truly believe that I may well be seriously B12 deficient even with a reading of 500+

I have given myself a B12 injection .... one every other day (3 in all) these last few days but seem to get worse symptoms after each injection. Symptoms like a sore tongue, extreme chilling coldness, headache, pounding in my chest........ this is most frightening. Anyone care to speculate?

Thanks for listening.

Clare in Tasmania
Well, thanks to Curious I was able to see your fingernails quite clearly.

Yes, you don't have moons on any fingers but your thumbs, except maybe there was the tiniest one on another finger, it was hard to tell, and is hard to tell even in real life.

My moons will be coming back, then if there is a lot of stress they will disappear again. (Right now mine are not flourishing.)

The other thing I notice in your images, is the very bright/dark coloring at the top of your nails... My nails were very much like that when I had the intense fatigue and pretty intense pain in my left arm.

Sadly I did a bad job of showing the changes because a part of that time I didn't have electric and it was really hard to charge my camera or use my computer.

But, when I look at my nails now, they are no longer like that, so I think all the additional rest and B12 helped. I'm not having the pain in my left arm any more, nor is my chin feeling as if it is cramping.

If you can rest, seriously rest, like stay in bed and read or watch telly, I think it would be best if you do that as well as supplement.

I sure hope you post that you are feeling better.

I just went back to your images, looking at them the way that Curious suggested, and I see that you do have ridges. Your ridges aren't as bad as mine were when I first began to wonder if they had something to do with how bad I was feeling, both physically and psychologically.

I'm worried about your chest pain. When I had that I went to the doctor several times, and they did heart tests that showed nothing wrong.

I know that being scared tends to make our hearts pound harder. But the thing is that even former President Clinton had all sorts of heart tests done, that presumably showed nothing, just before he had the major episode that resulted in heart surgery. So I'm not sure the tests are altogether useful.

I would say you had better rest, though. It took my problems like that quite a long time to go away this summer. I sure wish I'd had electric and had recorded pictures of my nails the whole time.

[Mcharris]

The B12 question is a difficult one I reckon.
I hope you will bear with me whilst I meander thru these thoughts of mine:
:D Firstly it seems (at least here in Ozzy Land) that unless you actually meet the said criteria.... given by the medics and government for a specific ailment/disease/disorder, then you are NOT sick and are probably a hypochondriac. So if you get a blood test done say for B12 and Folate and the test results come back in the 'normal range' - whatever happens to be the normal range for your country, then you obviously do not have a deficiency or a problem with either B12 or Folate..... end of subject! 'go home after you sign the medicare form'.... byeeeeeeeee

I have gently twisted my GP's arm and asked for blood tests for Homocystein (?spelling) and Methylmalonic acid (MMA) as I have read extensively that these two are better markers for B12 insufficiency. My Gp humoured me and ordered the tests, but did advise me that I would probably have to pay for them myself as the government did not consider them essential or necessary. Time will tell if I receive an account and have to pay privately for them, so be it as I WANT the numbers for reference.

As of today - six days since the blood draw, the test results are not yet back - I was told that Hcy takes about a week to come back. I have a GP appointment booked for tomorrow.... fingers crossed results available for discussion.

Now for some background on your's truly:

I have been sick for seven years, probbably much longer.
In 2000 I was bitten by a necrotic spider........ no action taken other than to debride the bite area and allow it to heal. My Darling Hubbie tends to want to place/blame my down turn in health to this point in time.

I however, with the wonderful gift of hindsight, and the amazing resources of the internet have discovered much written about the Proton Pump Inhibitor's (PPI's), stomach acid insufficiency and B12 deficiency. There is also the question of wether PPI's damage the Paretial cells in the stomach endangering the production of Intrinsic Factor (IF).

Having said all that....... let me put this in context.

I had an ulcer in the stomack back in the mid 1980's .... long before they were talking about Helicobacter pylori bacterium. I cannot remember what the Doc prescribed but I took it for a considerable time. However since that time - OVER 20 years now.... off and on ..... MORE ON than off, I have been taking medications to reduce stomach acid. I do also have a small hiatial hernia.

For at least 6 years I have been taking a drug called SOMAC. I have tried umpteen times over the years to come off this drug without success. A few days without taking it and the acid is rising nastily in my esophagus.

Me feels that perhaps I am deplete in B12 because of the years I have been TAKING ACID REDUCING MEDICATIONS. Seems a feasable proposition to me. But who am I to make discerning statements like this?

Doc's just hate it when you point things like this out to them!

Wish me luck coz I am going to attempt to show this to my GP tomorrow. Hopefully the blood work results will be back and will be available to back up my hypothesis.

There is so much more I could write but it would not be fair to publish :wink: a book on my health problems here, when I am such a new member. I will write more as time progresses. The symptoms are nasty and progressive BUT not yet diagnosed..... 'would you like to see a psychiatrist' I was asked at my last neuroligists appointment!

Thank you for replying to my inquiry.

Have a Great Day

McHarris aka Clare in Tassie :grouphug:

[Cheryl]

Hello - I have been reading various posts on Methyl B-12. I do not have a deficiency. I do have severe DPN. Is this something that could be useful regardless of whether there is a deficiency? 1000 mcg or 5000 mcg daily?
Is it safe to take with prescription meds?

Thanks!

Cheryl

[rose]

Clare,

That's the way it is here too, because most doctors are decades behind on this issue (understandable for some, because so many medical references haven't been updated on it as they should have been).

Those two tests are good (if you haven't taken B12), much better than the B12 test, but not 100%.

Regardless of what they show regarding B12, the homocysteine (spelled somewhat differently some places) will be good for you to have. You want to aim for the lower half of the normal range.

Sounds likely that you have more than one thing going on, but a very important root of much or all could be insufficient stomach acid. In fact, many doctors still give people stomach acid reducers when they don't have enough acid.

It's kind of a chicken and egg thing. With or without stomach-acid reducers, the stomach eventually atrophies to some degree (some early and badly, some much later). This can contribute to many problems, including overgrowth of bacteria, malabsorption of B12 (and possibly iron and calcium), and too many other things to try to mention. Stomach acid is protective and helpful in many ways.

The chicken and egg thing comes in with: what happened first, the low acid or a condition such as B12 deficiency that may have contributed to the problem.

Probably in most cases low acid.

Low stomach acid can also cause stomach contents to back up into the esophogus. And stomach contents are unpleasant and damaging there whether low in acid or not.

I would do a lot of reading on the vitamin (nutrient) forum, and at the very least I would take any kind of B12 I could get (not timed release or delayed release) in a 2000 mcg per day dose. It's inexpensive and safe. And if you need it it is very important.

rose

[rose]

Cheryl,

Methylcobalamin has been shown helpful to a percentage of people who have problems and cannot be shown B12 deficient, even with proper testing.

Yes, I would take the 5000 mcg and hope. If it is doesn't help directly, at least it won't hurt, and having a good store of B12 is a very good thing for the body.

Many things can interfere with B12 absorption, but I have never seen anything indicating that B12 interferes with meds, etc.

I'm very bad at acronyms :o. DPN?

rose

[ConsiderThis]

Hi Clare,
Your gift of hindsight will do you well, you sure mention some things that suggest you could be low on B12.

I for sure understand what you are saying about how a country's "low" dictates whether or not a person is viewed as having a deficiency. I have an article on my site about how the low for B12 in Japan and some other countries is 550. That's hundreds of points higher than here in the U.S.

If I were you I'd get Methycobalamin lozenges, or the hydroxy form that people on different forums here have said is available at your chemist.

I'd do that no matter what the doctors say.

:)

[ConsiderThis]

Hello - I have been reading various posts on Methyl B-12. I do not have a deficiency. I do have severe DPN. Is this something that could be useful regardless of whether there is a deficiency? 1000 mcg or 5000 mcg daily?
Is it safe to take with prescription meds?

Thanks!

Cheryl

Hi Cheryl,

My experience has been that I can't feel my feet because of PN. Once I got a stick stuck into my ankle and I didn't feel how it was getting infected until I could barely walk, and then even worse, I had a broken needle in my toe that I didn't feel.

I now know, for sure, that more B12 decreases PN and increases feeling and balance. I was having a lot of trouble with balance, too, but that's getting to be less a problem.

I'm curious, do you have ridges on your fingernails? and do you notice that your moons are beginning to disappear on some fingers? That can be a sign of B12 deficiency in terms of internal tissues.

[Mcharris]

[QUOTE=Cheryl;151310][COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Hello - I have been reading various posts on Methyl B-12. I do not have a deficiency. I do have severe DPN. Is this something that could be useful regardless of whether there is a deficiency? 1000 mcg or 5000 mcg daily?
Is it safe to take with prescription meds?

Cheryl I am also trying to learn as much as possible about B12 which I discovered is ESSENTIAL....... it is my new learning that as B12 is a water soluabble vitamin, it should NOT build up to toxic levels under normal conditions within the human body. Perhaps one of the more knowledgable members would care to agree/disagree .... substantiate this comment?

Cheer's from Clare in Tassie

[ConsiderThis]

Hello - I have been reading various posts on Methyl B-12. I do not have a deficiency. I do have severe DPN. Is this something that could be useful regardless of whether there is a deficiency? 1000 mcg or 5000 mcg daily?
Is it safe to take with prescription meds?

Cheryl I am also trying to learn as much as possible about B12 which I discovered is ESSENTIAL....... it is my new learning that as B12 is a water soluabble vitamin, it should NOT build up to toxic levels under normal conditions within the human body. Perhaps one of the more knowledgable members would care to agree/disagree .... substantiate this comment?

Cheer's from Clare in Tassie

Yes, B12 doesn't build up in our systems. What our bodies don't use, they excrete.

It's important to remember that we need B12 in all of our tissue, and just as it takes a long time for it to be depleted, it also takes a long time to replenish it.

Just because we have a lot of B12 in our blood doesn't mean it is going in the same big numbers into our tissue where it is needed.

I think that's why I've been having replacement therapy for nearly ten years, and my fingernails are now much smoother, but not smooth.

[Mcharris]

Hello everyone I have just returned from the booked visit with my GP regarding blood tests taken and ordered one week ago.

Sadly ONLY ONE of the ordered test results was back - serum B12
I was told, after the receptionist checked with the laboratory, that the Hyc and MMA can take up to 2 weeks for the results to become available.

Doc /GP was in a good mood and was open to discussing the possibility of me having subnormal B12 for my bodies requirements - subject to the results of the other tests backing this theory up.

Results of S. Vitamin B12 September 18, 2007 362
Results of S. Vitamin B12 April 23, 2007 548

Ain't difficult to see a marked DECLINE in those two numbers
(please note they are sill within the 'good level' guidelines issued for Australia)


My Red cell Folate from April was 1376
HCT Measured May 2007 is 0.38
again within 'normal' standard range for Labs in Australia


When discussing possible problems with him, Doc said 'DEFINITELY NOT pernicious anemia'.

He is willing once he sees the other lab results, and if MMA shows any indications etc.... to get my IF (intrinsic factor) tested.

In the interim I can have (generous of him) 1 x IM B12
Take a B multi vitamin
Drink 1 glass per day of Red Wine

Will write more shortly
:grouphug: Cheer's from Clare in Tassie

[Mcharris]

It is rather difficult obtaining sub-lingual methyl-cobalamin in Australia. Luckilly we are members of Life Extension Foundation so can purchase what we need on line and have it sent to us here.

I now have the 5mg sublinguals, but will wait to begin taking them I think untill after I see the GP in a further 2 weeks.

I have injected IM B12 and each time I seem to have had a reaction to it. I injected every second day (that is 3 times in one week on alternative days) and each time I felt markedly worse after each shot. Freezing cold shivers, more aches and pains, sore tongue, bowel problems etc.......

Maybe this is a case of you got to get worse before you get better? I wonder! I will give myself another shot tonight.... and try and be a patient patient! hahahah I want to use up the small store of injections I have in my refrigerator before commencing the daily sublinguals.

Q.:confused::confused::confused:
Instructions on the bottle of sunlinguals say to take 1 - 8 per day!!!!
then tell you
DO NOT EXCEED RECOMMENDED DOSE!

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Ok these are 5 mg....... how much of this sublingual actually becomes available to my body and how much will be excreted? any suggestions?

Thanks again..........

:grouphug: Clare in Tassie

[Mcharris]

while doing my online reading and research today I came across an article on the MERCOLA site which maybe of benefit to people looking for understanding of the process involved with testing for B12 deficiency.............

I have NO commercial interest in this site

http://www.mercola.com/2003/may/28/vitamin_b-12.htm

Just thought to pass this along for your information

:grouphug: See Ya later, Cheer's from Clare in Tassie

[ConsiderThis]

Hi Clare,
Nice to hear from you.

The marked decline is indeed marked. Did you have a lot of stress to deal with? I think it's useful to get an idea of what might cause something like that.

Pernicious anemia is a condition where your body no longer makes or has intrinsic factor which is needed to use B12. It's pretty rare these days. Some B12 researchers theorize that lack of intrinsic factor is a condition that develops after a significant periood of low B12.

It is very common however to have other problems which lead to low B12 and those problems are commonly called B12 malabsorption illness.

Are you taking a multi with the other B vitamins? or a mega B to supply them?

The B vitamins really are a "complex" and need to be taken together. If not, then too much of one can cause a reaction in one of the others because it is low low in relation to the others... I realize that your overall B12 is low, but if your B12 test is in the 300s after all the injections... or did you only begin injecting after your blood was drawn for the test? it would appear to have been even very low at one point.

I have on my site an excellent article about how the low in Japan and some other countries is 550. So on that scale your B12 results would not have been normal in either month.

[rose]

B12 must build up and be stored in quantities necessary for years of use. If not, the patient will decline terribly, either very slowly or rapidly.

It is not toxic, so there is no need to worry about it becoming a problem. What the body doesn't want to store or use it flushes out in the urine. B12 is used very slowly, but it can be built up pretty quickly.

Some other water soluable vitamins can build up. B6 for instance.

The doc almost surely is confusing megaloblastic anemia with "pernicious anemia." Megaloblastic anemia may not be present when one has "pernicious anemia," even in some cases in which the patient is being severely damaged by B12 deficiency. Until the intrinsic factor test, the doc hasn't begun to rule out pernicious anemia.

Pernicious anemia is not an anemia, and it is not an inability to use B12, it is an inability to absorb it normally.

When IF is not present (pernicious anemia), the patient must either have shots, take very large doses orally--1000 - 2000 mcg is the standard dose, or use some other method such as nasal (more difficult and expensive than oral).

Once the B12 is absorbed, it can be used just fine unless some other condition exists (that would be rare).

Pernicious is not rare. Malabsorption due to lack of sufficient stomach acid is far more common, and that sometimes progresses to the lack also of IF.

There is no worry about imbalance with B12 in relation to the other B vitamins. But, if you do not have one or more of the others in sufficient quantities, that can be a problem. And generally there should be a balance of the others, so a B complex is a good idea, in addition to the extra B12 at a different time of day.

Mercola has a lot of fabulous information, but he's not too hot on the B12. In fact, it looks like he didn't catch the fact that high MMA indicates either B12 deficiency or kidney problem, not low MMA as is suggested by the article.

Please remember that MMA does not increase in all cases of B12 deficiency, and when one takes B12 the MMA that is high can come down quickly so if it is tested after B12 has been taken it can be misleading.

They don't want to be responsible for you being on the cutting edge. The fact that they say eight a day shows that they are out front of most.

rose

[ConsiderThis]

Pernicious anemia is not the same as B12 malabsorption illness.

Pernicious anemia is a lack of intrinsic factor in the gastrointestinal system and that means that if a person with pernicious anemia eats the same foods containing B12 as a person who does not have pernicous anemia, the person with pernicious anemia will not get the benefit of the B12.

Our bodies need intrinsic factor in order to get benefit from the B12 we ingest. We can eat eggs and not use the B12 in them without intrinsic factor.

Hence the brilliance of sublinguals which bypass the gastrointestinal system.

Anemia is a medical word indicating a change in the blood,
a·ne·mi·a also a·nae·mi·a n. A pathological deficiency in the oxygen-carrying component of the blood, measured in unit volume concentrations of hemoglobin, red blood cell volume, or red blood cell number. [New Latin, from Greek anaimia : an-, without; see A-1 + haima, blood.]

The fact is that not everyone with low B12 has anemia, but many do.

So it is as harmful to people to say anemia must be a feature of a B12 deficiency, as it is to say that it is not a feature of B12 deficiency.

If someone has enlarged blood cells, and those cells are not carrying enough oxygen, and the person is feeling abnormally tired, then the person deserves to have their blood looked at both for signs of anemia and low B12.

[rose]

Pernicious anemia is not the same as "B12 malabsorption illess." As I explained above, pernicious anemia is lack of intrinsic factor.

Many more people have intrinsic factor but have lost the ability to produce sufficient stomach acid----thus a condition some call B12 malabsorption illness.

Both people will not benefit from foods containing B12, unless they eat huge quantities of liver daily or food fortified with B12 supplement. The person who lacks intrinsic factor won't even get any B12 from the fortified food.

We need sufficient stomach acid to break the B12 out of the eggs. Then we need intrinsic factor to accompany the B12 from stomach to ileum. Neither of these people will get any B12 out of the eggs.

It was learned about 40 years ago that people who lack intrinsic factor can absorb enough B12 by default for treatment, if their oral doses are over 1000 mcg per day. This was swallowed B12. The dose is the important thing.

Of course anemia is a condition of the blood. It is important that more doctors become aware that many people being damaged by B12 deficiency will not show any sign of anemia.

Of course it is harmful to say that anemia must be present when a person is deficient in B12. That is why I have been pounding away at this myth for years. People need to know, because most of their doctors don't.

rose

[ConsiderThis]

One thing that is sometimes overlooked, is that things like antacids can reduce stomach acid so much that B12 and magnesium can no longer be obtained from food containing them.

Thus, people who use a lot of antacids could stop using so many and begin to absorb nutrients and minerals better.

People with pernicious anemia cannot control the intrinsic factor in a similar way.

I think it is interesting that without sufficient stomach acid the incidence of h.pylori increases, as well as other bacteria (according to the homeless doctor I saw after my home was foreclosed) that damage stomach parietal cells and inhibit the production of stomach acid.

I read recently that taking a Betaine Hydrochloric Acid tablet with meals actually decreases the incidence of h.pylori. But not everone can safely take these tablets or capsules.

Vitamin B12 is SO essential. (Bad English, I know. Something is either essential, or it is not.) It's just that I want to emphasize how much it is needed. So many people that I've told about it over the years don't begin taking it even though they have several symptoms of B12 deficiency. Then suddenly their doctor puts them on B12 shots and they report to me how much better they are feeling, as if this was the first time that was possible.

We give away so much of our power when we refuse to take seriously what we know about ourselves. If something is true about us, about our health, then why don't we act on that truth rather than waiting for someone in authority to decree, as it were, that yes, it's true.

I can see that we as a society want prescription drugs carefully prescribed. I can see that we must rely on our doctors in relation to prescription drugs. But even with reliance on doctors for prescription drugs, so many people die each year from those prescription drugs.

I just wish that people who can see they have symptoms of low B12, would begin using the Methylcobalamin lozenges, or hydroxy, or even the cyanocobalamin if that is all they can get. I wish people would keep track of their symptoms, and if their symptoms decrease after they start replacing B12, then I wish they would recognize that the B12 was and probably will remain something they need.

If I sound crabby, it's because I still haven't had enough rest. And, the stress is unrelenting. Maybe I'm a little better at handling it. :) a little.

[rose]

Often people take antacids when in actuality they don't have enough acid. And many people lose stomach acid even though they haven't taken anything.

Low stomach acid becomes very common as people age. So a person should not assume that if they stop taking antacids they can then absorb B12.

People with pernicious anemia are losing or have lost the ability to produce intrinsic factor. It's not a matter of handling it. It is going, going, gone.

Stomach acid is protective as well as important for absorption of nutrients.

rose

[ConsiderThis]

Often people take antacids when in actuality they don't have enough acid. And many people lose stomach acid even though they haven't taken anything.

Low stomach acid becomes very common as people age. So a person should not assume that if they stop taking antacids they can then absorb B12.

People with pernicious anemia are losing or have lost the ability to produce intrinsic factor. It's not a matter of handling it. It is going, going, gone.

Stomach acid is protective as well as important for absorption of nutrients.

rose

I don't understand what you mean about handling intrinsic factor. ? ? ?

[Mcharris]

Are you taking a multi with the other B vitamins? or a mega B to supply them?

I realize that your overall B12 is low, but if your B12 test is in the 300s after all the injections... or did you only begin injecting after your blood was drawn for the test? it would appear to have been even very low at one point.


Thanks for replying again.
I am taking 1 x day multi B

I did NOT begin self using B12 until after I had the blood draw so what is reflected in the test results was ACCURATE for that point in time.

What is interesting .... a slightly off topic, but highly appropriate me thinks:

I am prescribed 5mg Folic Acid by my GP 1 x daily
This was suggested to the GP by the hospital dietician as a possible means to lower my homocystein (which by the way was never measured UNTILL I asked for it last week) but it was posited that if my cholesterol was high... which it is according to docs here (thats another topic all together) then high cholesterol = high homocystein because of inflammation.......

The point being they have never really checked my folate levels properly recently, so I have stopped the 5mg tablets and will ask for a test for folate before I go back onto them.

Will write more soon

:grouphug: Cheer's from Clare in Tassie

[Mcharris]

I contacted someone in the health / body building industry who has told me that vetinary B12 (horses etc) is safe for humans to use. I was looking for a supply / bottle that held more than one dose. I am going to look into this...... may not need it as I now have the sublinguals, but tiz good to know and I do enjoy research.


Regarding stomach acid

I have tried stopping the somac
I have tried drinking Braggs Vinegar to increase stomach acid naturally - thus assisting digestion.

BOTH of these made me VERY ILL

I cannot get off the pills much as I have tried.

Currently most evenings I find I am back to needing to drink a small glass of bicarbonate of soda (in water) to get myself comfortable to go to sleep, otherwise I have stomach acid seemingly rising into my esophagus. Arghhhh another thing to discuss with the GP - one of these days!

Cheer's again :grouphug: Clare in Tassie

[ConsiderThis]

Thanks for replying again.
I am taking 1 x day multi B

I did NOT begin self using B12 until after I had the blood draw so what is reflected in the test results was ACCURATE for that point in time.

What is interesting .... a slightly off topic, but highly appropriate me thinks:

I am prescribed 5mg Folic Acid by my GP 1 x daily
This was suggested to the GP by the hospital dietician as a possible means to lower my homocystein (which by the way was never measured UNTILL I asked for it last week) but it was posited that if my cholesterol was high... which it is according to docs here (thats another topic all together) then high cholesterol = high homocystein because of inflammation.......

The point being they have never really checked my folate levels properly recently, so I have stopped the 5mg tablets and will ask for a test for folate before I go back onto them.

Will write more soon

:grouphug: Cheer's from Clare in Tassie

Hi Clare,

That's interesting. (All of it, I mean.)

It's good you're taking a multi B. Is that sort of what we call a Mega B? I mean, it's all B vitamins, and not a variety of different vitamins?

I wonder if it would make a difference it you took more than one of those a day.

Before I had the regular shots, I misunderstood and thought I could raise my B12 level by taking Mega B vitamins. So I was taking a lot of them with a huge amount of liquid. I didn't have the highest dosage ones, because I wanted to take them often with a lot of liquid. What came of that was that it got rid of my allergies. Completely. It did not raise my B12 level one single point.

Okay, so I mention that because that's what I did before I started with the B12 shots. So that may have changed how the shots were accepted by my body.

Even now I take 3 to 4 Jarrow B-Rights a day because I don't want to have allergies again. So that may be why it works for me to have so much B12, in nearly daily shots.

Did you stop taking the Folic acid because you suspected it was causing some of the problem? I just checked my B-Right formula, and it has 400 mcg of Folic acid... so even taking 4 a day I'm getting 1.6 mg, which is not as much as you.

Are you feeling better than you were? I was really worried about you from your first post.

[ConsiderThis]

I contacted someone in the health / body building industry who has told me that vetinary B12 (horses etc) is safe for humans to use. I was looking for a supply / bottle that held more than one dose. I am going to look into this...... may not need it as I now have the sublinguals, but tiz good to know and I do enjoy research.


Regarding stomach acid

I have tried stopping the somac
I have tried drinking Braggs Vinegar to increase stomach acid naturally - thus assisting digestion.

BOTH of these made me VERY ILL

I cannot get off the pills much as I have tried.

Currently most evenings I find I am back to needing to drink a small glass of bicarbonate of soda (in water) to get myself comfortable to go to sleep, otherwise I have stomach acid seemingly rising into my esophagus. Arghhhh another thing to discuss with the GP - one of these days!

Cheer's again :grouphug: Clare in Tassie

Well, that's the most startling thing I've read!

about the B12 for horses.

I would be very careful about where it was made, though... I wouldn't want to see that it was made in China...

As much as I use, I would be hesitant. You totally blew me away with that.
:)


Re vinegar. I used to drink a tea of it quite frequently when I had a horrid cough. It worked great, but I did get sort of valley depressions running from side to side in my nails, especially my thumb nails. I had that kind of thing again (on my nails) when I was living in the hydrogen sulfide, so I would guess that maybe a lot of vinegar isn't that good for us, or at least some people.

Have you thought about ordering (or buying locally) the hydrochloric acid tablets? They are not all right for all people to take. I forget who is especially warned away from them.

I've been taking extra vitamin C and I think it may work somewhat the same way as hydrochloric acid. (I don't know that. I'm just mentioning it to you.)

What I do know, is that when I get that acid feeling at night, I take a hydrochloric acid tablet. Strange, I know, but I read somewhere that sometimes it's a lack of acid that causes the problem, and it has always helped for me.

If you are thinking of taking hydrochloric acid just be sure to read the warnings, in case you are one of the people who shouldn't take it.

[Mcharris]

I am not going to dash out and buy horsey B12.... but it is sure worth investigating. Think of the amount of money that top trainers and owners spend on their horses.... the B12 is not going to be of a cheap quality surely????

I found the following on the www which maybe of some benefit to anoyone trying to understand about B12.... tiz a government paper (errr......... ) well tiz a place to start from :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb12.asp

Table of Contents
What is vitamin B12?
What foods provide vitamin B12?
What is the recommended dietary intake for vitamin B12?
When is a deficiency of vitamin B12 likely to occur?
Do pregnant and/or lactating women need extra Vitamin B12?
Who else may need a vitamin B12 supplement to prevent a deficiency?
Drug : Nutrient Interactions
Caution: Folic Acid and vitamin B12 deficiency
What is the relationship between vitamin B12 homocysteine, and cardiovascular disease?
Do healthy young adults need a vitamin B12 supplement?
What is the health risk of too much vitamin B12?
Selecting a healthful diet
References
Reviewers




Later :grouphug: Clare in Tassie

PS..... any idea if taking B12 (while your body is deficient) can put you Blood pressure up?

[Mcharris]

I came across the following whilst reading up on B12 and gastric problems.
It maybe of interest to some.

(from)

http://doctorrw.blogspot.com/2005/09/another-nail-in-coffin-of-medical-myth.html

Another nail in the coffin of a medical myth Tradition has it that parenteral therapy is necessary to treat vitamin B-12 malabsorption. In recent years accumulating evidence has suggested the effectiveness of oral treatment. Much of the evidence has been in the form of case control and case series studies. This was the subject of a recent Cochrane review which found two RCTs of oral versus parenteral vitamin replacement, totaling 108 participants. 1000 to 2000 mcg of oral B-12 daily was found equal to a standard parenteral regimen.

Two recent narrative reviews of vitamin B-12 deficiency are linked here. [1] [2] They explain the physiologic rationale for oral replacement and highlight the only recently appreciated and most common cause of B-12 deficiency, known as food-cobalamin malabsorption syndrome. Now believed to be more common than classic pernicious anemia, food-cobalamin malabsorption syndrome is largely a disorder of the elderly. As explained in these reviews a common form of age related gastric atrophy results in deficient secretion of acid and pepsin, which are necessary to strip cobalamin from food protein. Patients with this common disorder can absorb B-12 from pills, but not food. Such patients have a normal Schilling’s test. The disorder is poorly understood, and some cases may be the result of longstanding H. pylori infection.

Food-cobalamin malabsorption is to be distinguished from classic pernicious anemia, an autoimmune disease characterized by antibodies to parietal cells and intrinsic factor. The effectiveness of oral B-12 replacement in such patients is less well understood, but apparently there is an alternate pathway of absorption which is independent of intrinsic factor. The absorptive mechanism is simple diffusion and requires a high concentration gradient, which is provided by the large daily oral doses of 1000-2000 mcg used in the studies.

As suggested in the Cochrane review this evidence, if put into widespread practice, could ease a substantial burden on health care resources. (The clinical effects may be more modest in those patients who derive substantial placebo effect from B-12 shots---anecdotal observation).

A few caveats:
1) The number of patients studied is small. The number with classic PA is smaller still.
2) The effective oral dose is high---1000 to 2000mcg daily.
3) Parenteral therapy has stood the test of time and may be preferable in patients with questionable compliance.
4) If oral treatment is elected the patient should be followed carefully in the short and long term for resolution of neurologic, hematologic and metabolic abnormalities including monitoring of the hemogram, reticulocyte response, homocysteine and methylmalonic acid levels.


NOTE FROM CLARE:

There are several comments posted, flowing from this 'blog' you will be able to read them if you go to the blog site.

[Escape]

I have been reading this thread with interest!

You see, I had Gastric Bypass surgery over three years ago. This surgery intentionally causes malabsorbtion, so I have to take supplements. The ones I cannot do without are: Calcium (has to be Citrate), Iron, and B-12. I am currently taking one 1000mcg losenge daily. I would much rather take the shot, but since I am insuranceless, the docs I go to refuse to prescribe it for me... even though they *know* I have had the surgery and need B-12. It's frustrating.

As for the B-12, the reason it is so essential for me to take it is because B-12 is processed at the bottom of the stomach (as it passes by a particular gland, I believe). Since I no longer use that portion of my stomach, I have no way to process B-12 unless it is sublingual or by shot. I just would prefer the shot because I am so bad at remembering to take my medicines.

[ConsiderThis]

I am not going to dash out and buy horsey B12.... but it is sure worth investigating. Think of the amount of money that top trainers and owners spend on their horses.... the B12 is not going to be of a cheap quality surely????

I found the following on the www which maybe of some benefit to anoyone trying to understand about B12.... tiz a government paper (errr......... ) well tiz a place to start from :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb12.asp

Table of Contents
What is vitamin B12?
What foods provide vitamin B12?
What is the recommended dietary intake for vitamin B12?
When is a deficiency of vitamin B12 likely to occur?
Do pregnant and/or lactating women need extra Vitamin B12?
Who else may need a vitamin B12 supplement to prevent a deficiency?
Drug : Nutrient Interactions
Caution: Folic Acid and vitamin B12 deficiency
What is the relationship between vitamin B12 homocysteine, and cardiovascular disease?
Do healthy young adults need a vitamin B12 supplement?
What is the health risk of too much vitamin B12?
Selecting a healthful diet
References
Reviewers

Later :grouphug: Clare in Tassie

PS..... any idea if taking B12 (while your body is deficient) can put you Blood pressure up?

Well you sure started me thinking last night with your horsey B12. lol
I was thiniking about how when I lived in England decades ago it was okay for veterinarians to work on humans, but illegal for medical doctors to work on animals. The reasoning was that the science used by a veterinarian was applicable across the board, but that the beliefs incorporated into the practices of a medical doctor were not necessarily beneficially in keeping with science. Something like that.

And then I started thinking about the safety of B12 that's manufactured for horses. Which led me to think about the news stories about pharmaceuticals that were/are made to look like the real thing by counterfeiters, and which have been sold at drug stores that people here in the US would normally trust. :eek:

I started thinking about our judicial in the US which feels free to condemn a man or woman to death, but if you show that a lawyer has lied causing great damage, they don't feel it's important enough to do anything to deter further wrong actions on the part of the lawyer.

So who can you trust?

And I thought exactly the same thing about the horses which are very valuable. I mean, clearly some horses are much more valuable than many people, and I do mean a number of poor people as opposed to one single valuable race horse. (This is not how I feel, it is what I have observed. It makes me sad.)

So, I'm wondering where to get horsey B12. :)


****

The gov. thing on B12 is good. I think I've looked at it before. One thing that keeps me from recommending it is the very low amounts of B12 that it recommends. Those amounts are way too low for anyone to use to obtain significant relief from nerve damage.

It does talk about folic acid and B12 and I wanted to do that too, when I was writing to you last night, but I was so tired it was painful. (I have to have my Revised Brief complete and filed on Friday, so I hope after that I can rest normally again.)

Anyway, I was too tired to think clearly about my experience with folic acid and B12.. I remember that when I started taking the hydrochloric acid, I also ordered NSI B12 capsules that I swallowed along with a hydrochloric acid capsule. I took my other B vitamins at the same time, I seem to remember.

What happened was that several symptoms I'd had of low B12 remained as reduced as if I were having B12 shots. So I was all happy. But then ... and the trouble is I forget and I think this was during the time I didn't have power, so I don't have an actual record. Or maybe I do because I wrote some hand notes, only I haven't transcribed them into my computer yet.

In any case, some serious B12 symptom suddenly got a lot worse. But which one, I can't remember, I just remember that I knew that I wasn't getting the whole of the help I got from B12 injections.

I'm afraid this isn't very clear because I don't have notes to identify exactly what I did and exactly what the results were.

Which emphasizes that keeping notes is essential if you want to know later what helped in what ways.

Thanks for an interesting set of posts. :)

[ConsiderThis]

I came across the following whilst reading up on B12 and gastric problems.
It maybe of interest to some.

(from)

http://doctorrw.blogspot.com/2005/09/another-nail-in-coffin-of-medical-myth.html

Another nail in the coffin of a medical myth Tradition has it that parenteral therapy is necessary to treat vitamin B-12 malabsorption. In recent years accumulating evidence has suggested the effectiveness of oral treatment. Much of the evidence has been in the form of case control and case series studies. This was the subject of a recent Cochrane review which found two RCTs of oral versus parenteral vitamin replacement, totaling 108 participants. 1000 to 2000 mcg of oral B-12 daily was found equal to a standard parenteral regimen.

Two recent narrative reviews of vitamin B-12 deficiency are linked here. [1] [2] They explain the physiologic rationale for oral replacement and highlight the only recently appreciated and most common cause of B-12 deficiency, known as food-cobalamin malabsorption syndrome. Now believed to be more common than classic pernicious anemia, food-cobalamin malabsorption syndrome is largely a disorder of the elderly. As explained in these reviews a common form of age related gastric atrophy results in deficient secretion of acid and pepsin, which are necessary to strip cobalamin from food protein. Patients with this common disorder can absorb B-12 from pills, but not food. Such patients have a normal Schilling’s test. The disorder is poorly understood, and some cases may be the result of longstanding H. pylori infection.

Food-cobalamin malabsorption is to be distinguished from classic pernicious anemia, an autoimmune disease characterized by antibodies to parietal cells and intrinsic factor. The effectiveness of oral B-12 replacement in such patients is less well understood, but apparently there is an alternate pathway of absorption which is independent of intrinsic factor. The absorptive mechanism is simple diffusion and requires a high concentration gradient, which is provided by the large daily oral doses of 1000-2000 mcg used in the studies.

As suggested in the Cochrane review this evidence, if put into widespread practice, could ease a substantial burden on health care resources. (The clinical effects may be more modest in those patients who derive substantial placebo effect from B-12 shots---anecdotal observation).

A few caveats:
1) The number of patients studied is small. The number with classic PA is smaller still.
2) The effective oral dose is high---1000 to 2000mcg daily.
3) Parenteral therapy has stood the test of time and may be preferable in patients with questionable compliance.
4) If oral treatment is elected the patient should be followed carefully in the short and long term for resolution of neurologic, hematologic and metabolic abnormalities including monitoring of the hemogram, reticulocyte response, homocysteine and methylmalonic acid levels.


NOTE FROM CLARE:

There are several comments posted, flowing from this 'blog' you will be able to read them if you go to the blog site.

Boy, this too is interesting. While I was aware of much of the information, I had not previously seen a recommendation of a daily dose of 2,000 mcg. I have mostly seen people recommend 1,000 mcg a day, and to me when I take so much more, it seemed a sadly low recommendation.

2,000 mcg is the same as 2mg and after a month of this dose would be equal to about two shots a month. I know for sure that I did better on two shots a month than one. (And then after years of that I was astounded at the difference it made to my peripheral neuropathy when I had a shot a day.)

Again, thank you very much for sharing what you've found. :)

[ConsiderThis]

I have been reading this thread with interest!

You see, I had Gastric Bypass surgery over three years ago. This surgery intentionally causes malabsorbtion, so I have to take supplements. The ones I cannot do without are: Calcium (has to be Citrate), Iron, and B-12. I am currently taking one 1000mcg losenge daily. I would much rather take the shot, but since I am insuranceless, the docs I go to refuse to prescribe it for me... even though they *know* I have had the surgery and need B-12. It's frustrating.

As for the B-12, the reason it is so essential for me to take it is because B-12 is processed at the bottom of the stomach (as it passes by a particular gland, I believe). Since I no longer use that portion of my stomach, I have no way to process B-12 unless it is sublingual or by shot. I just would prefer the shot because I am so bad at remembering to take my medicines.

Hi Escape,
I'm sorry to read that you're having trouble getting the B12 you need. It upsets me that if it were an antidepressant that you thought you needed, the docs would be rushing to write the prescription for you.

Be that as it may, if I were you I'd get one of those little boxes with the days of the week on it, and put my different pills in that. Someone here recommended it to me, years ago, and it's made a world of difference. I couldn't remember what I'd taken, or what I was yet to take before I had the little box. The box doesn't make me remember better, it simply shows me what I have taken and what I have yet to take.

I would for sure get one of those. You will be amazed at how great it is. :)

And, if you have the money, I'd for sure get the 5mg Methylcobalamin lozenges. I forget, but I think it runs something like $16 for two months.

I haven't always had that much money, so I know it may not be possible for you to get. And I don't have enough money to pay my October mortgage so I can't send you some. I used to send it to people who couldn't afford it who wrote to me.

(((((((((Escape)))))))))))

[Buttons]

Hi all. Well I don't think I'd be here today if it weren't for taking my B12. I also take folic acid.

Now question: somewhere I read that we need the folic acid for the B12 to absorb better. I send this stuff to people I know & have for past several years. I've been stressing to take the B12 1/2 hr away from the other vits or even food. Am I wrong about this?

I take B12 Methylcobalamin 1 MG. Now after all these years I FINALLY bothered to read the label,it says can take up to 3 per day! I've always just taken one. I keep mine right by my computer so I don't forget. (out of sunlight).

Somewhere in this long thread a gal named Clare mentioned a spider bite 7 yrs ago. How her hubby believes this was the beginning of her health decline. I just want to say my spider bite was 9 yrs ago & my life has gone downhill ever since. I've researched spider bites for many years. And there's even a chance the spider was from Australia (boxes were unpacked in the basement that had some stuff from Australia in them). This bite is still visable on my foot after all these years!

Right after the spider bite I began having severe myoclonic jerks,my entire body jerked from head to toe. I lost my memory,had many strange neuro symptoms. Had vertigo,balance problems,foot drop. Too many things to list right now. My one & only B12 test came back at 900 so was flagged as TOO HIGH. At the time I was taking a multi B. the doc said to stop taking B's. I was also diagnosed type 2 diabetic @ this time,so of course had cut out grains (B vits).

Thanks to Rose (and others) I found out about B12. I have no proof this has helped,but I can say that everytime I stop taking it I decline. The depression,cognitive skills,energy.....all goes downhill. Extreme fatique is one of the worse issues I deal with on a daily basis. I also have arthritis in my hands,knees,and now my hips.

I'm now wondering if I should increase my dosage to at least 2 per day? I've never been diagnosed with PN. These past few months I have noticed numbness,tingling and pain in various parts of my body. This is a new thing for me.

Also I'd like to point out that for those of you suffering from stomach issues: try a gluten free diet & see if that helps. It did help me. I just need to stick with it better!

My hair has been falling out at a rapid pace also. I credit the folic acid with keeping this to about 1/2 what it is I remove from the drain if I don't take it.

My moons are back on my thumbs and some of my other nails,overall my nails look much better. No more white spots (zinc?).

And too bad I don't have a horse,I figure I'd get better treatment from a vet!

Just my input into the discussion,Buttons

P.S. I kinda feel that the B12 makes me hyper,sorta like I'm wired for action,does anyone else notice this? I'm not on any other vits right now. Also want to point out that Metforim (diabetic drug) depletes B12!!

[ConsiderThis]

Hi all. Well I don't think I'd be here today if it weren't for taking my B12. I also take folic acid.

Now question: somewhere I read that we need the folic acid for the B12 to absorb better. I send this stuff to people I know & have for past several years. I've been stressing to take the B12 1/2 hr away from the other vits or even food. Am I wrong about this?

I take B12 Methylcobalamin 1 MG. Now after all these years I FINALLY bothered to read the label,it says can take up to 3 per day! I've always just taken one. I keep mine right by my computer so I don't forget. (out of sunlight).

Somewhere in this long thread a gal named Clare mentioned a spider bite 7 yrs ago. How her hubby believes this was the beginning of her health decline. I just want to say my spider bite was 9 yrs ago & my life has gone downhill ever since. I've researched spider bites for many years. And there's even a chance the spider was from Australia (boxes were unpacked in the basement that had some stuff from Australia in them). This bite is still visable on my foot after all these years!

Right after the spider bite I began having severe myoclonic jerks,my entire body jerked from head to toe. I lost my memory,had many strange neuro symptoms. Had vertigo,balance problems,foot drop. Too many things to list right now. My one & only B12 test came back at 900 so was flagged as TOO HIGH. At the time I was taking a multi B. the doc said to stop taking B's. I was also diagnosed type 2 diabetic @ this time,so of course had cut out grains (B vits).

Thanks to Rose (and others) I found out about B12. I have no proof this has helped,but I can say that everytime I stop taking it I decline. The depression,cognitive skills,energy.....all goes downhill. Extreme fatique is one of the worse issues I deal with on a daily basis. I also have arthritis in my hands,knees,and now my hips.

I'm now wondering if I should increase my dosage to at least 2 per day? I've never been diagnosed with PN. These past few months I have noticed numbness,tingling and pain in various parts of my body. This is a new thing for me.

Also I'd like to point out that for those of you suffering from stomach issues: try a gluten free diet & see if that helps. It did help me. I just need to stick with it better!

My hair has been falling out at a rapid pace also. I credit the folic acid with keeping this to about 1/2 what it is I remove from the drain if I don't take it.

My moons are back on my thumbs and some of my other nails,overall my nails look much better. No more white spots (zinc?).

And too bad I don't have a horse,I figure I'd get better treatment from a vet!

Just my input into the discussion,Buttons

P.S. I kinda feel that the B12 makes me hyper,sorta like I'm wired for action,does anyone else notice this? I'm not on any other vits right now. Also want to point out that Metforim (diabetic drug) depletes B12!!

Hi Buttons, what an Interesting post!
As an aside, I always have white spots appear when I have additional stress.

The spider account is interesting. I was bitten several years ago and was surprised at how long it took for the bite to heal. Years. I think it was some sort of rather normal spider around here. I was living in an apartment complex that had just been built, and there were a lot of spiders racing around outside as if they were relearning the lay of the land and getting ready to compete at Daytona.

Have you tried Milk Thistle to remove toxins, at all? I was surprised at how it appears to have helped get rid of some of the hydrogen sulfide that must have still been in my system and was causing certain nerve damage/reactions.

I would for sure take more of the Methylcobalamin, especially if you are finding some of your symptoms are on the increase. :)

Thanks for a very interesting post. :)

[rose]

Karen,

I was clarifying because of something you wrote.

Karen wrote:
People with pernicious anemia cannot control the intrinsic factor in a similar way.

I wanted to make clear that people who have pernicious anemia don't have intrinsic factor to "control."

rose

[rose]

The government is getting better, but their site still contains important errors. Not a good source of information.

rose

[rose]

Escape,

Not having a stomach is like having "pernicious anemia." You don't have either the stomach acid or the intrinsic factor.

So the treatment would be the same as for one with pernicious anemia. Standard is 1000 - 2000 mcg oral or shots.

rose

[rose]

Buttons,

Sorry if you've already answered this, but has the thyroid angle been thoroughly explored?

Your case is certainly complicated. Any one of three or four conditions could cause your problems, and except for the spider bite :eek:, they often occur in the same person.

Regardless, what the heck. More methylcobalamin can't hurt. And make sure you are getting the other nutrients. They're all necessary, and some work very closely together.

I wouldn't take anything else with my B12, not food, not supplements, not meds.

A small minority find themselves wired by their B12. Those often decide to take it in the morning.

rose

[rose]

Regarding the veterinarian angle, when an RN friend and I were doing a huge amount of reading on B12 years ago, it was much easier to find good information regarding livestock than people.

It pays to have livestock healthy.

Fortunately B12 is easy to get, so we don't have to raid the livestock cabinet. ;)

rose

[ConsiderThis]

People with pernicious anemia are losing or have lost the ability to produce intrinsic factor. It's not a matter of handling it. It is going, going, gone.

Karen,

I was clarifying because of something you wrote.

Karen wrote:
One thing that is sometimes overlooked, is that things like antacids can reduce stomach acid so much that B12 and magnesium can no longer be obtained from food containing them.

Thus, people who use a lot of antacids could stop using so many and begin to absorb nutrients and minerals better.

People with pernicious anemia cannot control the intrinsic factor in a similar way.


I wanted to make clear that people who have pernicious anemia don't have intrinsic factor to "control."

rose

That's what I said, isn't it? In pernicious anemia people have no control, there's no intrinsic factor. I don't see where you got the word, "handling" -- Are you sure you understood what I wrote?

[Mcharris]

I wake up to you lot every morning.... see what happens when you live Down Under!

Australia has a few nasty spiders BUT not as many as the Continental USA.... the one they suppose bit me is called a WHITE TAIL.... tiny little thing.... left a big hole tho in my upper thigh!

Rose, Karen: you two seem to have the most 'advanced' information, for which I myself am truly grateful. One Q tho? actually more of an observation: are you two in competition? or angry with each other, or just used to clarifying each other's comments?

Whatever!!!! I am grateful for your wealth of knowledge.

I enjoy research myself... so when I find anything I think maybe of benefit I will post it? HERE????? is that the correct place for the B12 stuff.....

Breakfast time....... ttyl

:grouphug: Clare in Tassie

[ConsiderThis]

I wake up to you lot every morning.... see what happens when you live Down Under!

Australia has a few nasty spiders BUT not as many as the Continental USA.... the one they suppose bit me is called a WHITE TAIL.... tiny little thing.... left a big hole tho in my upper thigh!

Rose, Karen: you two seem to have the most 'advanced' information, for which I myself am truly grateful. One Q tho? actually more of an observation: are you two in competition? or angry with each other, or just used to clarifying each other's comments?

Whatever!!!! I am grateful for your wealth of knowledge.

I enjoy research myself... so when I find anything I think maybe of benefit I will post it? HERE????? is that the correct place for the B12 stuff.....

Breakfast time....... ttyl

:grouphug: Clare in Tassie

Hi Clare,
* administrative edit in accordance with NT guidelines*

I was bedbound from tetanus at the time and had no family or friends in physical life. Now sometimes I just am not up for it anymore. I'm under a lot of stress with some costly legal things. My purpose is to help people understand B12 better, and why it's so difficult for many people to get enough. (Which is also the case for magnesium since it too requires stomach acid). I used to be able to help people when I worked, but I can't work any more. So my web site makes me feel useful. To me, there are many different ways of explaining vitamin B12 and there's room for everyone who wants to explain it because there are so many people who need the information.

Yes, this is a good place to post vitamin B12 information.

Because depression can be a symptom of low B12 I sometimes post in depression forums. And I've posted in memory related forums because of the involvement of B12 in good memory. But Alzheimer's forums are a little sad because mostly everyone feels hopeless, which I think results from feeling they have to accept that there's no hope. There are a lot of people who need the information. So, post away! (and I don't mean go away) :)

[Chemar]

It would be appreciated if this discussion could remain on topic and not become personal toward other members.

thank you

Cheri

[ConsiderThis]

It would be appreciated if this discussion could remain on topic and not become personal toward other members.

thank you

Cheri

Yes. Certain things hurt. (I mean nothing to do with Claire)

[Mcharris]

It would be appreciated if this discussion could remain on topic and not become personal toward other members.

thank you

Cheri

Ladies please: It was an observation I made with a smile on my face:
I am new here
Seems I pressed the wrong button and I APPOLOGISE SINCERELY
Can we drop the subject or erase the message?

The two 'senior' members seem to have BOTH OF THEM good answers and knowledge, yet from time to time I noticed one or the other questioning previous comments....... made by the other.....

It is a learning curve here I believe........ I did not mean to invoke a quarell (?sp)

:grouphug:

[Mcharris]

The more I read the more I get (dare I say) 'angry' that my doc's over the years have never mentioned any of this 'stuff' to me...........

Like for instance these facts which I have found on the internet about the drug I have been prescribed, and been taking for my reflux problems:

(where possible I include the www address so anyone else interested can go look for more information)

SOMAC Pantoprazole
Generally, daily treatment with any acid-blocking medicines over a long time (e.g. longer than 3 years) may lead to malabsorption of cyanocobalamin caused by hypo- or achlorhydria. Rare cases of cyanocobalamin deficiency under acid-blocking therapy have been reported in the literature. This should be considered if respective clinical symptoms are observed.
To date there has been no experience with treatment in children.
In long-term treatment, especially when exceeding a treatment period of 1 year, patients should be kept under regular surveillance.
Patients being treated for mild reflux disease and associated symptoms with SOMAC 20 mg, who do not respond after 4 weeks, should be investigated.
http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Profs/datasheet/s/somactab.htm

(I have been on this particular brand for 7 years)

So what I am reading here (in my own language) is that

(a) I should be closely monitored becuase the problem did not rectify itself.......

(b) they do know of 'rare cases' of cyanocobalamin deficiency under acid-blocking therapy . They state it should be considered if ? clinical symptoms (? of B12 deficiency) are observed!

TO DATE my doc's have not questioned why I need to remain on this medication..... nor have they even thought of the possibility that this drug could be the cause ..... IF IT IS .... of my problems.

I know I know...... they are too busy to read the stuff on web sites, they rely on what the drug rep's tell them......... arghhhhhhhh this is another major problem... but a different issue to the one we are discussing here.


Anyway I kept on reading and found another good lot of information here:
http://www.socalrejuvenation.com/fatigue.html

Vitamin B12 (cobalamin) plays an important role in DNA synthesis and neurologic function. Deficiency can lead to a wide spectrum of hematologic and neuropsychiatric disorders that can often be reversed by early diagnosis and prompt treatment.

Excuse me...... did I just read 'early detection'.... and possible reversal...... I have been trying to get a proper diagnosis now for seven years....... so much for EARLY DETECTION being able to reverse neuro symptoms...... arghhhhh

TABLE 1
Clinical Manifestations of Vitamin B12 Deficiency


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hematologic
Megaloblastic anemia
Pancytopenia (leukopenia, thrombocytopenia)
Neurologic
Paresthesias
Peripheral neuropathy
Combined systems disease (demyelination of dorsal columns and corticospinal tract)
Psychiatric
Irritability, personality change
Mild memory impairment, dementia
Depression
Psychosis
Cardiovascular
Possible increased risk of myocardial infarction and stroke

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have also read several times that neurological symptoms can quite often be present without the 'usual blood probelms' associated with B12 deficiency.

Gee I wish Doc's had time to read all of this..... would help make doctor's office visits far more productive.

I shall cease and desist for now....... thanks for listening again

[ConsiderThis]

All of the things you wrote about your docs are similar to the things which made me start my web site. I could not even get my doctor to hand out the information about the study showing a 550 B12 level was used in Japan because that was the level at which cognitive changes for the worse could be detected.

It made me so upset that there was all this research about B12, like the need for early diagnosis and treatment to avoid nerve damage, and my doctors were just not informed or interested.

One actually told me I could NOT be B12 deficient because I was not a vegetarian.

It boggles the mind.

So, it's great that you're getting the information and getting it out there, too.

I'm sorry I got so upset before. I feel as if I'm goaded. For sure, I am not going to follow you around and comment on everything you say differently than me.

I have to go back to finishing revisions of my appeal. (Sometimes you sound a lot like a lawyer, by the way. I came back when I realized that I'd better say that I mean that in a good way.) :)

[Mcharris]

(Sometimes you sound a lot like a lawyer, by the way. I came back when I realized that I'd better say that I mean that in a good way.) :)


You brought a smile to my dial....... when I was a youngster, many eon's ago my Dear Mother, when exasperated by my argumentative self used to call me a Philadelphia Lawyer.......

I just went online to get a proper meaning for the phrase.......
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1500032

"Philadelphia lawyer" means a lawyer (or sometimes someone in a different field) who is shrewd, a good arguer, and good at exploiting technicalities. The phrase can be either a compliment or an insult; it basically depends whether to person so called is on the same side as the speaker.


Yes I know you did not try to insult me :p:p:p:p:p

Thanks for brightening my day.........

[ConsiderThis]

You brought a smile to my dial....... when I was a youngster, many eon's ago my Dear Mother, when exasperated by my argumentative self used to call me a Philadelphia Lawyer.......

I just went online to get a proper meaning for the phrase.......
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1500032

"Philadelphia lawyer" means a lawyer (or sometimes someone in a different field) who is shrewd, a good arguer, and good at exploiting technicalities. The phrase can be either a compliment or an insult; it basically depends whether to person so called is on the same side as the speaker.


Yes I know you did not try to insult me :p:p:p:p:p

Thanks for brightening my day.........

Oh, how funny, I don't know if you ever watch Big Brother. Apparently there's an Australian version. Anyway, in the last one here, they had "America's player" who was there to argue for whatever the majority of Americans voted. And in the house, (they knew nothing of the America's player angle) they got to calling him a Philadelphia lawyer. And, he always won them over. The people who won, did so because he argued to the very end for them. I'd never heard the term till then, so it was fun/amazing that you brought it up. (So see, you brightened my day, too.) :)

He was by far the most nimble minded of the players. :)

That certainly seems a lot like you, nimble minded. :)

[Buttons]

Aha, you find my story interesting huh? Gee I didn't even tell ya too much!

Rose,I nagged different doctors for several years about PROPER thyroid testing! Doc #1,you don't need that,you're too active to have thyroid issues. Doc #2,well those tests are too expensive,instead I'll order a worthless Lyme test & ANA to check for Lupus. Doc #3,I'll order a TSH test (but completely ignore my request for Free3 and Free4 cause I have no idea what you're talking about!) All this after I stress my mother has thyroid disease. All this after I plainly exhibit an overweight,listless,depressed,balding persona.

Consider this,I have a pantry full of vits/herbals. I'll drag out the milk thistle!

Aussie gal (ya didn't really expect me to recall 3 names did ya?), my spider was rather large,too bad I killed it. I could go into spider history with my story if I'd just kept the darn thing in a baggie! Live and learn. Want to hear the rest of the story? Last year the bite puffed up! Yeah,full of fluid! Doc #1,it's a rare form of maligant cancer,need a biopsy ASAP. Doc #2,let's culture this fluid (not for mycoplasma though,we don't know anything about that),we need to schedule a biospy ASAP.

I gave up on doctor's after that.

Cheers everyone! I'm gonna take my B12 now!
Buttons

[rose]

Buttons,

I was afraid it was something like that. Aaaargh!

rose

[Mcharris]

I gave up on doctor's after that.

Buttons

Buttons I empathise with you .... maybe not in the precise medical problems we both have, but in the type of service, lack of service we have received from the medical profession.

Yes tiz a shame you do not still have that spider, or at least a photograph of it for identification purposes. However after all this time your real issue with it was / is the type of poison or microbes/nasties it inflicted on your body. Somehow I do not think a look see under the microscope of the fluid would be such a bad idea............... however that is your choice.

I just don't know where to find a doc who wll listen to you.... especially when you are not (tiz me spoken of here) a privately paying patient.

Is it any wonder more and more persons are turning to self diagnosis and medication?

[rose]

Unfortunately, that kind of treatment (and worse!!) has become common in this country.

rose

[Buttons]

Clare, happens that I am private pay now,I cancelled my worthless insurance!The bite is no longer full of fluid,that was last year. Now it just looks like a black speck.Biopsies are expensive,and 2 very different "maybes" were a tad weird.

This is not my thread so will keep to the topic.

Just had a tumor removed from my dog yesterday & waiting for the biopsy. Now my stress is over the top! I'm doubling my B12 today!Hopefully my dog will get better care than I did these past 9 yrs!

Did I mention I actually mail bottles of B12 to an alcoholic in my life? When she got out of detox she was so bad she was using a walker,stayed with us for a week before going to rehab,during that week I pumped her full of B12 & other vits,plus regular healthy meals. She was walking before the week was out!

A friend was taking Neurotin,her kidney's began to fail. I also gave her some B12 (told her to check with her doc,she's elderly). She was taken off the drug & still uses B12 faithfully.

Maybe we should be called the B12'ers club or something?

Later,Buttons

[rose]

Years ago, on one of the braintalk boards a few of us referred to ourselves as The B Team. :winky:

rose

[Mcharris]

I figured it was probably time for a new thread???

I am going to try and start one about SUB ACUTE which I know very little about and seek help with understanding.

Maybe see you all there.

Cheer's :grouphug:

[Chemar]

:) Hi everyone

I split this thread for you and moved the last 10 posts re homocystine to the new thread that towie started on that subject

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=29237

[crytears]

I don't know if any of you recall back in August 2004 I'd posted my pleas' for help on the PN board....was before the big BT crash.
Rose helped me understand that I may be B12 deficient, but all the Neuro's and other specilist I'd been seen by told me I was in fact normal ranges for all my vits and mins....sadly 232 b12 level was/is considered normal....and was never given an MM HS levels done for true B12 levels.
How could someone on some web site here know more than a medical doctor!
Well....by experience AND reading!...one can learn just as a doctor does/can!
But I was dying or seriously considering "ending it all" as I was suffering and I mean suffering!
My prayer to God each nite "Heal me or kill me!"...just get it over with God! I truely wanted to die, but how does one do that when don't have the energy to jump off a bridge! Beisdes, the water here in Oregon is freezing cold and muddy looking...so forget that!:o
But seriously...I had died several times from a ruptured aneurism that kept leaking in my intestines...
actually is called an AVM= Arteriovenous Malformation. You're born with them, usually the brain...mine was intestinal.
I also had Crohns disease...or so was told...
Thats gone as well, thanks to going Gluten Free back in April...my gut pains are gone, no more diarreah and pain! I'm cured!...
THANKS to the many GF'r pro's here on these forums.
Back to my B12....I'd suffered severe anemia...hem 5.1 hgb and 15% hematacrit (oxygene level) I was half dead,
went around like this nearly 3 years, getting transfusions every 2 weeks.
That nightmare didn't kill me, but the B12 nearly finished the job.

I never do anything half way...so guess is reason I'm still alive.
I'd gotten the revolutionary pill camera, got stuck and batteries died before leaving my stomach.
It got stuck where my small instense were so diseased, at the Terminal Illeum...
they removed nearly 3 feet, then searched remainder of intestines.
Thats when they found the baseball sized AVM further up my intesines removed 6 inches there....

So NOW I'm missing several feet of small intestines and some of what was left was very diseased, unable to absorb even water!...
yes it was THAT bad!...and well DUH!..
The ONLY place your body absorbs B12 is in small intestines OR under your tongue!
Is because B12 molecules are large, once inside your body, need to bind to something in order to convert,
if low or lacking that...forget it!
Is useless...just like the little B12 dots I'd taken...didn't work, usless!

Why all the doctors who saw me failed to give me standard protocol,
B12 injections to one who'd had bowel surgery and OR intestinal diseases such as Crohns or C-sprue....is MAJOR DUH!
...they'd only reached their level of incompetantcy, then refered elswhere! Well, duh! Duh DUH!
Was like a sick joke...the entire saga is maddening and I'd like to sue if I could!

Its as stupid as one ER doc refused to do basic lab work on me,
sent me home saying was a panic attack when fact was I was missing 2/3 of my blood, was NOT a panic attack,
was severe anemia from bleeding to death!...that doc received a well deserved black mark against her record!

Once AVM was removed, was the end of my anemia!
But...I continued my downhill crash...like a jet liner at full throttle, some times nose up, sometimes down.

I drank an green energy drink someone got me into...MLM ploy....but did the trick asi its loaded with Hawaiin Spirilina....
a source of B12 (not good!)

I had Neuropathy from head to toe, muscle twitching, weakness, burning, total loss of balance, burning lips....
But not a single Neuro picked up on the clues...I mean DUH!...
She drinks this stuff= enough energy to flush the toilet! Doesn't drink it...bedridden!
This went on over half year.
My husband hired in home health care services to help me personal grooming as I was too fatigued to change my own underware..
I am dead serious when I say this...I couldn't even flush the toilet let alone wipe my own butt!
I couldn't even chew or swallow either I was that fatigued!
My spinal cord hurt like electric flash down my spine when put my chin to chest.

I was so mentally out of it...but if I drank that green stuff, I'd have a few hours of sanity..
.enough to google search from my bed with a laptop, to find the cause of PN,
Right away Rose advised me to take Methyl B12...within weeks I was out of bed....

This was Sept 3, 2004 when took my first B12 sublingual tab.
In Oct 25 I think, same year...they repeated my EMG an NC test...now was back to normal...was moderate level of PN back in June!

I did not have a single injection of anything! except all those blood transfusions over those years of anemia....
All my healing and B12 help had been soley via Methyl B12 sublingual tabs by Jarrow brand.

I was told I should try the cyno injections as the doctors telling me this is best...hmmm!
But if so...then why on earth did I "enjoy" such a near miraculous turn around in my health just by taking the sublingual tabs?

From what I've learned so far...the Methyl suglingual is far superior to the Cyano injections....
there are many, but for this one reason alone...storage!
Why take a weekly or monthly injection, when can have a daily source of B12. You only need 3mg a day anyway!
And if you don't store, which is obvios, afterall, why did you become deficient in the first place!
One egg or glass of milk alone has enough B12 for half year IF your body stores it!

I've met lots of older ladies...they all tell me they can't wait to go in for their B12 shots...so can have some energy.
Thats when I tell them about the Methyl sublingual form, teach them what I know and get off the shots!...
no good reason to have the low's in-between shots!

I've read what the Mayo and Harvard trained Neurologist are saying about the Methyl B12...
if my doctors argue these facts...I just simply ask...
"Do you want to argue with Mayo trained Neuro PLUS proven facts in my EMG and NC test alone is all proof I need to know the Methyl has been a lifeline to me and Rose has beeb a godsend to many!
I wouldn't be writting any of this here had I not found BT and Rose hadn't answered my cries for help...I'd be taking a well needed dirt nap the bottom side of the soil! Those are the facts!

If one wants to get a shot of Cyna...they should continue their practice...but if they really want to heal...
then start taking the Methyl B12 every day!...early on, twice a day in the begining...
and yes...the repairs your body is making from the damages done while being deficient is often weird and scarey...
all the more reasons to take it...and NEVER STOP!
It only last a short period of time before the repairs are made if possible.

Never let this stop you or else you may never know what irreversable damages your body may experience...needlessly!
My EMG and NC test are proof alone that the Methyl B12 works very well! And in such a short time too.
I was amazed how quickly I got my energy back...10 days! Soley on Methyl B12,
think was taking the 5K mcg day, but not sure.
Wish those lost post would miraculously show up one day!
Blessings to all, Cheryl

PS....I'm still missing my moons in my index finger...
I do think there's something to this...but one can still have full moons in all their fingers and still be deficient...
there's a difference between tissue and serum levels in many vits and mins....
so isn't a good "gold standard" but I'd seriously think about taking the B12 if my moons were missing for sure! Can't hurt!
I think for this reason alone one shouldn't feel confident that all is well if their moons are full and in place!

[rose]

It appears that the body frequently can adapt to absorb in another area, but there is no reason to take a chance. And even the most ignorant of doctors generally know that people who have had digestive surgery are especially at risk of B12 malabsorption. Blech!

Regarding storage, one can store perfectly and still become deficient. That is why people who have good stores and store well can take years to become deficient. If someone with excellent stores begins malabsorbing severely they will get no B12 at all unless they take very large doses or shots. After a few to several years they will be severely depleted if not treated with those very large doses or shots.

No, I don't think there's anything to the moons theory, other than the fact that B12 deficiency can affect people in many ways and there may be some for whom that is a factor. Moons or no moons, if one has other symptoms or signs I think B12 is an excellent idea. :)

rose

[davos]

Today i received a health letter main topic how more effective for B12 is a new spray. my neuro had me ask for a test of B12 and folic acid from
my primary care doctor. after 6 months all i know is that the test was done but the neuro and i have requested the results, today i got through to the primary care and was told a nurse will call. my next appointment is in feb
so it may take a year altogether. the patient seems incidental, im not told what a surplus or shortage of B12 means, or the results of the simple test.
i think i have parkinsons. i have no idea what the neuro is looking for
in asking for the tests.

SEARCH for info on spray and/or patch if you haven't already.

davos

[clouds z]

http://products.mercola.com/vitamin-b12-spray/?source=nl