coming out in small voice

[harley]

i am usually very loud with my opinions, but there is one i have kept quiet about. i dont know why i am, i should be shouting it to the rooftops. i guess that i feel i will have to go into a long, lengthy explanation why i feel the way i do, and i dont think i should have to due to some very personal reasons. yet, it is difficult for me to keep reading about it and not cringe. so, i am putting in my 2 cents. i am against embryonic stem cell research.

maybe i will be able to explain why after i take this step.

[wwally0]

Hi Harley

You are a wonderful poet. You really made your self small and quiet with the lower case “i” and the small sentences – but provocative and powerful – leaving us hanging, wondering what was it that made her cringe.

Now, see what you’ve done. i’m going to have to think, really think.
This may take time. guy

[stevem53]

Im not against it myself, but I have come to the conclusion that waiting for the political process to make it happen is misleading..Its always going to be a political tug of war between the left and the right, and even if we do get stem cell legislation passed, its progress is always going to depend on who controls Congress, and who the President is, as to how much funding will be appropriated etc..And whos to say that legislation that will undermine the research wont be passed down the road after the fact?..I think depending on the political process is a gamble at best

[vlhperry]

It doesn't matter your reason. You will always be loved and accepted no matter what opinions you hold. No one will beat you up for "coming out."

Vicky

[K.Ibsen]

Ultimately, preventing it here in the U.S. only prevents it here in the U.S. Our prohibition exports the ability to capitalize on it to other nations and we will eventually send our dollars out of the U.S. to buy the products of their efforts. This isn't a moral or ethical assessment. It's just a matter of fact statement that money rules.

Talking about whether it should be legalized or not is just talk. Sure, we could make a statement to the rest of the world if our nation's conviction were that strong, which it isn't. Unfortunately, much of the world outside the U.S. doesn't really care what we have to say. It's probably already legal somewhere and those doing the research will probably keep it quiet until they have something to sell. There are also a lot of people who simply don't care about laws if the money is good.

The real test will come when real cures appear on the market. Those with strong moral convictions may choose to remain sick or die. I suspect the majority, however, will choose to get well and live, because the instinct for survival also rules.

I think I'd rather talk about other things. I'll not post on this topic again.

By the way, I also agree with Vicky.

[aftermathman]

I am quite proud of the position the UK adopts on such matters.

Indeed we have now allowed the creation of human-animal embryos to be used for research.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6978384.stm

Originally this was opposed by the public however when the question was put in the context of curing diseases the public opinion turned to favour this move.

My concern remains, without the leadership of the global superpower, unregulated practices may arise. The UK has tight controls over escr, Korea showed what can happen when these controls are not in place.

Like "K", don't want an argument, and I respect the opinions of those with different views on the subject.

Each to his/her own,
Neil.

GO ENGLAND (rugby world cup, Le Crunch today).

[GregD]

At this point, I am neither for or against embryonic stem cell research. I do feel that it is an area that needs to be fully explored to determine whether or not embryonic stem cells hold the secrets to a cure for this disease. Enough with the political banter on the subject. Allow the needed all human lines to be created and let's get on with it. Either they will or won't provide a cure. Let's find out one way or the other.

GregD

[harley]

ok... here goes..

i have had an abortion. i know the side that holds the horrid after effects of guilt associated with it. it does not matter to me if the fetus embryo was used for the betterment of others health. that was not the purpose of its creation. there is a huge arguement that others claim the embryos are not all just from abortions, therefore it is justifyable to use them in research. there are arguements that am embryo is not considered to be a life yet. there is only one purpose that an embryo has been created. only one. and that is so that embryo will become a life. it would not matter if it was created in testtubes, or if it had died during a miscarriage. think of the ramifications of a law legalizing using embryos. there are thousands of people with pd, and thousands more with other conditions that embryonic stem cell could help. yes, money makes the world go around. it is scary what it could turn into. i realize this is a difficult subject for many to discuss. i am not posting this to stand on a platform. if i was given an option for a cure through embryonic stem cell, i would rather go down the road that God has laid out for me. i am not trying to sway others.. im just vocalizing the other side of this issue.

Within my heart you lay still
Not far from the wall
That was your home
Though only for a short while
You had no voice to call to me
Yet I knew of you
It was too easy to let you go
Now, too hard to forget you

You deserved creation
The right to breathe my air
Laugh and feel loved
In a world designed for you
My truths were only temporary
But they extinguished your existence
It was too easy to turn away
From eyes that will never shed tears

From your window, now light
Look down upon me
Know that I think of you
That the forgiveness is not enough
To cover the scar left behind
I bleed alongside of you
It was too easy to close my thoughts
And eject part of my soul.

When I do meet you
It will be when He calls me
The emptiness cannot be filled
By any way other than what is pure.
I am humbled in life’s spirit
Permanent enough to overcome when
It was too easy to pretend that
My choice was more important than yours.

[wwally0]

Harley
Your next poem might begin:
I forgive myself,
For God is a merciful God . . .

I did a search under “healing emotionally after an abortion”

http://www.metacrawler.com/info.metac/search/web/healing%252Bemotionally%252Bafter%252Ban%252Babort ion/1/-/1/-/-/-/1/-/-/-/1/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/417/top/-/-/1/1

but I chickened out as far as looking at the content fearing the fanatics and extremists one might encounter before landing on common sense. I am surprised that the topic is not so taboo and that some support may be there; if a person was to land on the right site, book...

In all honesty I don’t know enough about embryonic stem cell research to make a sound argument. I am, however pleased that religious values help keep the moral and ethical components of scientific experimentation in check.

I’m of mixed feelings. I don’t know if I’d have the strength to turn down a cure based on my religious convictions. The questions just get more and more complex. If a panel of scientists were to one day announce that the genetic code of life is all mapped out and we know which markers trigger PD and furthermore how to correct them: is this revelation going to be against biblical teaching? Or are we ushering in a modern age of miracles?

I am also leery of the profit margins of pharmaceutical companies and manufaturers of DBS stimulators and related infrastructures. I am always curious as to who is funding research and how that might taint expected outcomes. On my cynical days I fear that for a cure to surface it must be profitable and industry sustainable. On the more positive note, smart drugs and better methods of medication delivery have got to be just around the corner. I must do a heap more reading to get a better handle on these issues. Thank you Harley for your poem and I wish you more comfort during the emotional and healing side of your journey.
Regards, Guy

[indigogo]

Harley - I'm sorry for the trauma you suffered from your abortion. I can imagine why this would influence your opinion on ESCR, and when you are suffering, the facts sometime don't matter. My apologies to you for adding the information below. - Carey

Just a factual statement: embryos from abortion or miscarriage cannot be used in embryonic stem cell research (ESCR). That is because the cells are no longer viable for use after only about 4 DAYS after fertilization. Once they grow beyond the stage of about 100 cells called a blastocyst, the cells begin to differentiate and become neurons or skin or bones, etc.

The reason the very early blastocytic cells are promising is because they are undifferentiated - they are "blank" cells. Thus, the they can be grown into any kind of cell that is needed. For instance, in Chuck Murry's lab at the University of Washington, he can use adult stem cells to promote new blood-based growth (like bone marrow transplants), but he is actually able to grow healthy heart tissue with embryonic cells (he uses "Presidentially Approved" cells of which there are very few). With this process, hearts can heal without scar tissue. They've tried, but failed, to grow new heart muscle with "adult" stem cells.

Fact: cord blood cells, placenta cells, etc. are not viable replacements for embryonic stem cells - they've already become something else.

Fact: stem cells from fetuses or any embryo beyond 4 days old are not viable because they have already become something else.

Fact: researchers want to use only unused eggs fertilized by invitro fertilization that are DONATED by a couple for this purpose.

Fact: ADULT stem cells don't mean they are from an adult; it means they are "differentiated" or past the blastocyst stage.

The pro ESCR side is hurt by language such as "adult" and "embryo" when other, more descriptive terms might be less inflammatory and more truthful.

I think it is fine to oppose ESCR on religious grounds. But please get the facts right, and do not presume to suppose that there is another equal scientific option.

For those of you who are leery of who is funding - that is the very reason the federal NIH was established in the first place - to keep good ethical tabs on medical research. They do a very good job of it. Why should ESCR be pushed to the shadowy realms of privately funded research? But that is exactly what has happened.

[therese]

It is so obvious in reading your absolutely beautiful poem that your words came from deep within your heart, Harley. I just would like to say that I concur with Guy, i.e., that your next poem might begin: "I forgive myself for God is a merciful God". The words of your poem make so apparent your very real sorrow...and it seems that you have suffered enough...that it's time to "move on" knowing in your mind and heart that surely the merciful God of whom Guy spoke has forgiven you. Hopefully, this will bring at least a degree of comfort to your aching heart, Harley.

Therese

[Chicory]

Harley-
I am sorry to hear of your loss. I know that it is hard to forgive yourself, but yes God forgives you. Many crisis pregnancy centers provide post-abortive counseling for those who need it. You can look in the yellow pages for some place near you. Here is a website you can check out: www.rachelsvineyard.com

I am against embryonic stem cell research too. Research with adult stem cells has actually been more promising.

Thank you for sharing your poem with us. I will pray for you.

Chicory

[olsen]

thank you, Carey, for posting the facts. madelyn

[proudest_mama]

Wow, Harley! My heart bleeds for you.

But now another side of the story ...

I, too, had an abortion when I was 22 but I don't feel guilt and then I feel guilty that I don't feel guilt!

I also don't support embryotic research, but I would never shove it down a person's throat. To each his own.

Carey, I'm not trying to put you down, and maybe you can explain your position, but the one statement that you made has me puzzled. "Only unused eggs fertilized by in vitro fertilization

If it's am embryo, and if it's fertilized, then it is life because it has the potential to BE life.

And, Greg, your post, too, is interesting ... You state in your very first sentence "At this point, I am neither for or against embryonic stem cell research". But then further down in your paragraph you state that "I do feel that it is an area that needs to be fully explored . Allow the needed all human lines to be created and let's get on with it". I think you've confused yourself! Your post clearly states (TO ME ... I don't want to offend you or anyone else!) that you are for, and not against, embryonic research.

Okay, and now to venture a little off topic, but I'd like to ask you guys (notice that I did not say y'all!) for your opinion and honestly and truthfully seek your opinions.

I have one daughter (22) and three boys (21, 19 and 14). We have talked about sex, abortion, money, taxes, jobs, education, you name it! That open communication is what I believe has kept our kids on the right track. As a matter of fact, just last night, my daughter spent the night in Dallas with a friend ... who just happens to be a boy ... because it was halfway for both of them to drive. Do I trust her? Explicitly. In the end, even if she violated that trust, it is her choice and she has to deal with the consequences.

But there are two points that I'd like to make:

#1 - I worry more about my three boys than I'll ever worry about my daughter. WHY? Because girls are manipulative and sneaky ... They can say, "It's okay, I'm on the pill" The boys fall for it, then - surprise! ... he now has an 18 year commitment.

#2 - If my daughter ever became pregnant (well, at least until the age of 18), she knows ... and she was consistently told ... that we would give that child up for adoption. To me (again, I am not trying to offend anyone) in this day and age of "OPEN ADOPTION", there is no excuse not to do so.

I can truthfully understand having an abortion Harley, when you or I became pregnant. Do I regret it, absolutely, but I can't even fathom how difficult it must have been if you gave that child up, never to be heard from again.

And, one more question/thought. In this day and age, it is my opinion that most teenagers that become pregnant do so willingly and purposefully. I have a difficult time believing that they didn't know! I have often wondered if the boy went to court, explained that he was TOLD that she was on the pill, if he would have a case. Are there any lawyers out there?!

Moderators ... please allow these topics of discussion as long as they appear respectful.

You guys are the best!!

[aftermathman]

"And, one more question/thought. In this day and age, it is my opinion that most teenagers that become pregnant do so willingly and purposefully. I have a difficult time believing that they didn't know!".

My sister's 17 year old girl, v. bright, excellent school, (consistently rated in the top 10 of UK), is now pregnant. Lad is a waster, 19 years old, one kid already. No one can tell me they both didn't know the facts of life. Why not take the morning after pill if worried.

Unfortunately all the work will fall on my sister who is trying to rebuild her life following a divorce. She is already arguing with her "new chap", who, in his mid 40's did not have sharing the house with someone else's baby on the agenda.

Never underestimate the selfishness of a teenager !!

Neil.

[Jo*mar]

kids & teens-
I think it is more of - "it won't happen to us" than anything else.
They often don't consider the consequences of their actions, they think they are invincible. A big part of being immature.

Hmm - But I think many adults do the same thing to tell the truth.:rolleyes:

[proudest_mama]

Jo, I love your countdown to Thanksgiving!

When we lived in Norway, they (obviously) don't celebrate it and our kids had to go to school. (This ticked me off because it was an International School and they easily could have given those two days off!)

But, even though we didn't celebrate it on Thursday, we always invited families over and celebrated it on Saturday. It was w-o-n-d-e-r-f-u-l and only an American, who lives overseas, can truly appreciate all that the good ole' USA has to offer.

As a joke, I would say to my hubby ... "You don't have to worry about infidelity, honey, I'm not staying here!"

[paula_w]

Hi all,

Just reinforcing some facts about abortion and ESCR. They are two different things. Cells from an abortion are called fetal cells and it is not illegal to use them. They have been implanted into humans.

It is illegal to use public funding to create embryos or to use current left overs from fertility clinics, other than the ones specified by Bush years ago.

I still see Harley's line of reasoning, associating it all as destruction of human life. But to associate ESCR with abortion, is misleading and many people who are not reading up on this like we crazy,information obsessed early retired baby boomers with parkinson's do, get that idea in their head that it's like abortion.

The comparison is confusing but the facts are even more puzzling. Abortion and the use of fetal cells for research is legal.

paula

[GregD]

And, Greg, your post, too, is interesting ... You state in your very first sentence "At this point, I am neither for or against embryonic stem cell research". But then further down in your paragraph you state that "I do feel that it is an area that needs to be fully explored . Allow the needed all human lines to be created and let's get on with it". I think you've confused yourself! Your post clearly states (TO ME ... I don't want to offend you or anyone else!) that you are for, and not against, embryonic research.


No, I'm not confused. I'm undecided.
For at least ten years now ESCR has been at the forfront of Parkinson's research. Due to the moral issues raised and the lack of proper funding this reaearch has not had a fair chance to be proven one way or another.
Here in the U.S. our president has banned allowing new uncomtaminated cell lines to be produced. How can a researcher say one way or another if ESCR will work if the material he has to work with is contaminated?
I have a disease that has forced me to leave my job, stop doing the things I like to do, and has severely impacted my quality of life and it's not going to stop until I'm dead. I want a cure or at least better medication to manage the symptoms of the disease. We should leave no stone unturned. With proper guidelines in place ESCR can be researched fully. They can prove one way or the other if ESCR is the answer we all have been waiting for. I maintain my statement, I am neither for or against ESCR. I just want a definitive answer. Yes it is or no it isn't, with out all of the political banter and moral issue beliefs and myths.

In other words, crap or get off the pot!

GregD

[indigogo]

Terri - I agree with you re:

Carey, I'm not trying to put you down, and maybe you can explain your position, but the one statement that you made has me puzzled. "Only unused eggs fertilized by in vitro fertilization

If it's am embryo, and if it's fertilized, then it is life because it has the potential to BE life.

My main point was that aborted and miscarried fetuses and embryos are not candidates for embryotic stem cell harvesting because their stem cells are no longer blank - so that is a fear that should be put aside because it makes no sense.

Regarding the fertilized eggs: there are many people who would like to donate their leftover fertilized eggs for the purpose of scientific research, which they believe is a noble cause, but are currently prohibited from doing so.

Hypocrisy reigns in this area - people are allowed to create potential life everyday in the name of invitro fertilization, and then just casually destroy the fertilized eggs that are left over. Where is the out cry over that? Why can't a different decision be made to give them up for research? There would still be enough for adoption. The choice should be up to the parents or creators of that life - if they can now choose for them to be flushed away, they should also be allowed to choose research.

[proudest_mama]

Paula, Greg & Carey,

Each of your posts help me understand just a tad more each time. I think Carey said it best, though ...

The choice should be up to the parents or creators of that life - if they can now choose for them to be flushed away, they should also be allowed to choose research.

As long as that statement doesn't affect me, and isn't dangerous to others, I don't have the right to push my beliefs on others.

This is different than, say, allowing marijuana to become legalized. All it would take is a few accidents that involves the loss of life for it to impact me.

Personally, I am against it ... but, like Guy I'm not sure that I would have the needed willpower to turn down a cure if it came to that which was (or currently is) due to embryonic stem cells.

Paula, the question FOR ME (not everyone else) is not if it's legal or not ... it's that I choose to put my beliefs over science ... legal or not.

I equate this argument to yet another passionate cause of mine (socialized medicine). Until someone experiences it, truly experiences it, please don't think it's the answer to our system. Is our health care lacking in areas ... absolutely and positively. I am not saying that our system is without problems, but if someone thinks that the problem will go away with socialized medicine, they better think twice and contact me! LOL

Moderators, thanks for allowing these type of discussions. Most of us are pretty passionate about our beliefs, and it will take only one bad apple to spoil it for the rest of us. But most of us enjoy these discussions. It helps us to:

1) Better get to know one another,
2) Have something else to focus on other than the mundane
3) Use those brain cells for a cause that we believe in
4) Sharpen our thinking process ... and (drum roll please)
5) HAVE A LIFE!!!

Greg, I also appreciate your clarification. I can see how you debate things back and forth, trying to process all of the information. Are you an engineer by chance?!!

Again thanks for the responses. Two heads are always better than one and it helps me, at least, explore both sides of the coin. I don't want any of this rammed down my throat, but a healthy debate is wonderful.

Have a wonderful Sunday everyone ...

[moose53]

((((((Harley)))))),

You were very brave to bring this subject up :hug:

I *KNOW* how hard it must have been for you. I was pressured to have an abortion when I was 29 (by the man that would become my husband). The whole 'procedure' was handled badly. I saw the baby (16 weeks).

I lived in hell for a long-long time. I wanted G-d to forgive and give me another child. Never happened. But, I did, finally, end up forgiving myself. But, not my husband.

I believe that all energy that makes up life -- animals, people, plants -- is shared and reused. I don't believe that G-d would give us the knowledge and the skill to use the technologies that are being created unless we were supposed to use them.

But, that's just what I believe. I don't expect anyone else to believe the same as I do.

When my Mom was in the hospital, I was told that my Mom was sick and dying beccause I was practicing the religion of Judaism. That's the most hateful thing anyone has ever said to me.

I've paid dearly for my decisions. I would never-ever force my decisions onto someone else.

That's a decision that each of us has to look at with our eyes and our own heart and soul. I do think that we're all responsible to hear what others are saying and then make our own determination for what fits our beliefs and our religion.

Bless you, Harley, for being brave enough and strong enough to bring up this discussion.

Hugs.

Barb :hug:

[steffi 001]

I am sending you heaps of love and hugs.
Steff

[harley]

this has been amazing to me. the support, comfort, links offered, .. it was very difficult for me to bring out the subject. it was buried inside of me.. as i said.. with a thick scar over the top. i have always felt uncomfortable talking about embryonic research. i just wouldnt say why.

i will not bring it up again. there is no platform, no preaching here. everyone has their opinion, and is completely entitled to it. i just wanted to state what mine was.. it was a hard thing to do, and you know something? i am now healing ..

yes, knowing what forgiveness is.. and accepting its truth is sooooo important. thank you..

[therese]

How difficult it had to have been for you to speak of your buried grief and sorrow! How courageous and strong, though, you were to have done that! I am just happy that from your courage...and from the support and understanding of those here at the forum that you have been able to start your healing...the first step in that process being the healing of self.

Therese

[proudest_mama]

Harley,

I was once told that it is so much harder to receive than to give. Our pride, alone, makes it difficult. You were brave, smart and courageous in bringing up the subject. And it was wonderful to hear everyone's encouraging words. I firmly believe that you are now on the road to forgiveness, acceptance, and peace.

And, Moose, my heart bleeds for you. It's hard for me to believe that there
are such cruel people in this world. It is people like that that gives religion a bad name. Any organized religion that would say that is not a religion. It is a dictatorship. I also firmly believe that unless you can QUESTION your religious beliefs, it is equally true.

And, moderators, thanks again for allowing this healthy debate.

[vlhperry]

It was Easter day, 1976, when I miscarried my child during my fifth month. I wanted that child desperately. I was at home when it happened. I watched the placenta drop out of my body into the toilet bowl. I retrieved the baby and sent it's remains to the hospital where it was inspected to be sure I had no other matter in my uterus. When I was asked if I wanted to know if it was a boy or girl I said no.

Any woman who has experienced the miracle of conception, could not justify killing their child deliberately. The woman who give their children up for adoption do so out of love for the child. Their concern is their child have parents who are more prepared to provide a more loving environment. They put their child's needs ahead of their own. It is called unselfishness, a word very rarely heard these days in this "anything goes" society. Those who insist on tolerance are the most intolerent of all. If those who do not agree with their views, their tolerence runs right out the window.

Harley, you and I share a similair relationship with our families, and you must forgive yourself for the choices you made as a young girl. You had so much pain in your young life. Maturity brings wisdom but doesn't condemn.

Love,
Vicky

[proudest_mama]

Well said, Vicky!

[moose53]

((((((Everyone that remembers the hurt)))))),

I used to highlight and circle phrases in books (my own books) -- phrases that 'clicked' when I was in therapy trying to adapt to 'everything'.

I've found that some people (writers especially) have the words that express exactly what's in my heart.

The saying/phrase that I wanted to pass on went something like this -- "Tea and talk is 'Jewish Therapy'. You talk and share experiences and memories over tea until the experiences and memories become just that -- experiences and memories that you share with another human being."

I had so much trouble coping with losing my Brother to suicide and losing my baby to stupidity and to not standing up for my own boundaries. What's gotten me through all of this is talking with others. It's amazing how many people share the same experiences as we do and yet -- we always think we're the only one. For me, fnding out that I wasn't 'the only one' made it so much easier for me to learn how to forgive myself and how to go on and have a life in spite of the pain.

Bless you all for reaching out to help someone who's in such severe psychic pain. I've been there and the hands and the words reaching back to help me and to hold me up saved my life.

Hugs for the room.

Barb :hug:

[therese]

As I read this thread and the responses to it, I could only think about the compassion and warmth of this place where, initially, we came for information and support to help with the medical/physical aspect of this "demon disease"...yet how it is so easily able to transform itself into a healing place for aching hearts. I have no doubt that a peaceful healing has taken place for many...even those who have suffered similiarly, yet didn't feel they wanted to tell their "own" stories here in this moment. Thank you, Harley, for being instrumental in bringing about a healing that might not otherwise have happened if it were not for your strength and courage.

Therese

[K.Ibsen]

I said I wasn't going to post on this topic again. I changed my mind. I tried to edit my original post, but it's too late.

I apologize if my post was cynical and harsh. I didn't understand the context or the meaning. I now understand the pain and trauma and extend to all who have known it my heartfelt sorrow and a prayer for healing.

Karl