people that believe in conspiracies are just plain silly

[clouds z]

or are they?

[Curious]

i don't think i should answer this. i smell a conspriracy brewing....:p

[dorry]

or are they?

Time will tell Clouds. Years ago, the absurdities were vague and it was easy to question whether there was a conspiracy going on. Now, it takes more faith to believe that there is not, with what we see played out before our eyes.

[ZombieSlayer]

Here is perhaps the most important question to ask yourself when you're listening/researching both sides (oh wait most conspiracy theory nuts aren't doing that :rolleyes: )...

WHOM can you believe?

[clouds z]

i dont believe bush /cheney who will take away a sick persons medical pot, who will polute lands like kosovo and iraq with depleted uranium munitions -clinton too ,and let soldiers die without knowledge or treatment

bush who will imprison people for sending an anonymous email up to 2 years who will take kids from parents and break up families

and people for the death penalty are stupid

i dont like the "democrats" either hardly

[dorry]

(oh wait most conspiracy theory nuts aren't doing that :rolleyes: )...

WHOM can you believe?

who you calling a nut? :D

I like to read between the lines of all sides of the arguement.

Now bush..... he's out of touch with reality. Most blue bloods are.

[paula_w]

i think we are past all of that, should forget about the differences and polarizing, get over it - everyone is making mistakes, even forgive [yeah right] and come together to solve this war. All the rest is just dirty politics, lies, and gang mentality.We all need to get behind our government and win this war. Everything else is just junior high.

It's not all Bush's fault....hatred and vengeance for this man is muddling logic. Bush haters' ears don't hear and their eyes don't see anything else because they don't want to.

Win the war and hash the rest out later. Abandoning Iraq now is absurdl


Paula

[dorry]

Oh I agree abandoning Iraq is absurd, but they need to come up with an exit plan, because we will never resolve the tribal conflicts there with american democracy. That would be like asking the Mormons, Catholics, Jews, Charismatics and Protestant churches, throw witchcraft and voodo in there also... to all worship under the same roof with 1 appointed leader. Never going to happen.

We are interfering in other countries business, where we don't belong. I think clouds and others question the lies for the war, because if Bush were left to his own devices, Iran and Syria would be next.

People being vocal and standing up to his impulse actions is a good thing. He reminds me of a kid with the keys to a candy store. "Oh boy what can I eat next!". I firmly believe if he had the blank check that he so desires, he would bring on WW3. Frankly I question his sanity in addition to his intelligence. I'm not a bush basher. He just happens to be in the hotseat and has done alot of damage while in office.

Some people believe Bush should have carte blanche (not saying you) because of 9/11. Bush mentions Iran is the boogeyman and many pseudo patriots yell hoorah killem all.

Mentality like that scares the hell out of me.

[clouds z]

i say get out of iraq now-who cares about iraq

they can sovle thier own problems

[paula_w]

It's very hard to sort it all out. In the end, no one is informed for sure about anything. I'm not a Bush fan, but just can not follow the logic of those who despise him. We live in a free country, not without problems like health care and poverty, but it's no comparison to the suppression in non-democratic countries.

Going into Iraq scared me to death, but why doesn't anyone discuss the threat of our enemies? Is it denial? Doesn't anyone see the potential danger of showing weakness right now by not trying to work with our own leaders? Shouldn't the good of the country take priority over feelings about Bush?

Do you consider us in a state of war?

Paula

[KathyM]

It makes me angry that he continues to connect Iraq with 9/11 when he promotes his "war on terror." But when he's asked directly, he admits there is no connection.

We should have stayed on course from the beginning, i.e., go after "Spanky and his gang." I don't think we should have used military force or meddled further in the political affairs of Afghanistan.

When Tim McVeigh was on the loose after the OKC bombing, we didn't drop bombs on Indiana. We didn't blow up people's houses/businesses when we suspected he was in the vicinity. The innocent people in Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11 either.

True, the Taliban is very bad, but we helped place them into power and supplied them with weapons because we didn't want Russia to have access/control over the country.

The same goes for Iraq. We supported Hussein and helped place him in power over Iraq. What guarantee do we have that the new government won't also rule with an iron fist?

What bothers me is the hypocrisy and lies. We tell the civilians we care about them and want them to be free, but we don't care what happens to them. We only want their governments to be friendly with us so that we can have access their resources.

Bush only saw brown people when he looked at Afghan and Iraqi citizens - and they all looked the same to him. He didn't understand the complexities of running a country made up of various tribal nations.

I think some people who believe Iraq was involved in 9/11 do the same thing - i.e., to them all brown muslims are the same.

I guess you can tell I don't like Bush. However, I'd be furious if another country decided it was time for a regime change and started attacking our country. If foreign troops ever break down my door in the middle of the night to search my home and take my husband away for questioning - I will NOT welcome them with open arms or give them flowers. If they blew up my town and killed my neighbors, I'd probably pick up my knitting needles and fight to the death to protect my home and family.

If foreign troops ever did that to us, I'm sure they'd create more enemies than friends. They have no right to decide who should run our country - that's our decision to make, and our battle to fight.

My heart goes out to the people of Iraq. They weren't prepared to fight a civil war when we attacked their country and removed their government. Bush made it even worse with his tough "bring 'em on" talk - when he invited all the terrorists to fight us in Iraq instead of fighting us here. If we weren't prepared to sacrifice our land and people, we never should have declared war. Victory is never guaranteed.

[clouds z]

look up "operation ajax wikipedia"on google

maybe if usa didnt cause problems we would have less enemies-blame the greedy corporations who use our soldiers for their profits and at same time refuse to defend our border

[dorry]

KathyM - where's the applaud emoticon? My thoughts exactly. It's nice to see someones opinions based on rational thinking rather than emotion.

It saddens me to see any military OVERREACT and innocents killed for no reason. Israel/Lebanon? Nations with advanced technology and firepower, need put brains behind the decision makers that push those buttons.

Pre-war Iraqi's had medical care, education, sophisication as a country. I believe medical and education was free for it's citizens, not sure. Other than the sanctions imposed, I thought they were a prosperous country. What do they have now? What hope do they have that even basic services will be returned anytime soon? Very sad.

And no, Paula W (?) we are not at war. If our leaders were really concerned about homeland security, our borders would be sealed tight.....but that is a topic for another day.

[clouds z]

one in 12 illegal aliens is violent criminals i heard and hispanics are also mad they prey on their neighborhoods-maybe they see the worst of it-yet "liberals" act like it a race thing -hispanics vs "the evil gringo"

turn off your tv!!

http://latinoamericans.org/future_lair.htm

[paula_w]

OK...we aren't at war because the borders would be sealed. That's a tall order isn't it? As usual, the diplomatic way is taking eons and no one agrees. I think it's too late for that, possibly. As recently shown in the UK, they already could be among us.

I share your sadness about the Iraqi citizens. But does anyone remember the pictures of the Iraqis cheering about 9/11? Even though there is no proven connection, terrorism in other places like Israel, which the Arab nations continuously threaten to blow off the face of the earth, was reduced after the removal of Saddam Hussein.

I agree with Kathy about the lack of understanding about tribal nations. Democracies don't attack each other, but apparently that doesn't apply to tribes. It's very hard to imagine that it wasn't taken into consideration.

My first reaction to 9/11 was that it was what we deserved. We have been greedy and they are finally coming after us. It didn't take long to get past that thinking. No one deserves that and here's what I can't understand, seriously - why do you not think the terrorists are at war with us? Why would you go so far out of your way to deny that 9/11 was an act of war against us? I lost an old high school friend and neighbor on that plane you are saying didn't crash into the Pentagon. If ghosts could communicate, wonder how he'd feel about the selling of those videos.

I agree that greedy corporations are slimes....just read about GDNF advocacy sometime, that's us fighting Amgen tooth and nail over a phase II clinical trial halt. But do you think big business stops with us? Do you think it doesn't exist in the Middle East or China?

I see our biggest problem being the war between the Democrats and the Republicans. It's not rational to me.

Remember these?


"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas, former U. S. Socialist Presidential Candidate (1936 and many other years)
"We cannot expect Americans to jump from capitalism to communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans doses of socialism until they suddenly awake to find out they have communism." - Nikita S. Khrushchev

This is a war with extremists, and we are NOT the extremists. Just be careful who you vote for - there is a danger of losing liberties at both ends of the spectrum.

I don't think Islamic terrorism fits in well with democracy. It bothers me that terrorists are either ignored or not at fault. We need to make a lot of changes in our country, but I can't see the Democrats [which is the party I am registered as] as doing anything but trying to get in office, at the expense of our global safety.

In other words, I don't trust them to fix it - they are shoving hatred of the person who is responsible for keeping us safe down our throats. Can you say that doesn't cause fear?

Paula

[KathyM]

Paula

I agree with you about the fighting between democrats and republicans. Seems like they are more devoted to their political parties than they are to the welfare of this nation and its people. It's really sad to see people hating each other based on their political preference in this country. We're supposed to be the UNITED States, but it doesn't feel very united. It's also very frightening because as the song says "united we stand, divided we fall."

I don't really care which party runs the government. I just want our leaders to be honest with us. I want them to work for ALL people in this country, not just a select few. If they claim to care about us, I want to see some solid proof - not just pretty campaign speeches filled with rhetoric.

I don't pay much attention to political campaigns, because they're all the same. They say whatever the targeted audience wants to hear in order to get their vote. I prefer to watch what they do when they're not campaigning.

I voted for Gore, but it wasn't because he was a democrat - and it certainly wasn't due to the way he handled himself during his presidential campaign, lol.

I voted for him because I had met him years ago when I worked for the president of a turkey company. My boss had plans to close a plant in Knoxville. It would have had a major impact on the people living in that area, but he didn't care - he only cared about profit.

I received a call from the receptionist that Senator Gore was in the lobby and wanted to come up and speak with my boss. He came unannounced, and alone - no entourage, no reporters.

He met with my boss and talked him into converting the plant to processing chicken instead of closing it altogether. It was the first time anyone had EVER seen my boss talked into changing his mind. Gore saved the jobs of every one of those workers, and they never even knew their jobs were in jeopardy. He had previously closed a plant in Minnesota, but no one from MN ever attempted to save the jobs of those workers. I was really excited when he decided to run for president because he seemed to really care about the people in this country.

[reverett123]

Power is exercised by conspiracy. It is simply the way things are done. In a society of more than one there is apt to be disagreement as to goals or methods. When one groups plans or acts to further their own aims without revealing themselves to others likely to oppose, that is conspiracy. It is the way things are done from the level of the corner grocery to the corporate high rise. If you don't get that you are doomed to the role of sheep. The shepherds do not discuss their plans with you.

The idea that we are free in the US is an illusion to control us. You can be arrested for wearing a shirt with words critical of our rulers. You can voice protest only in isolated "free speech zones". You cannot discuss doubts about 9/11 in a public forum without risking your job or worse. You get your information from a handful of outlets controlled by a group of corporations who are controlled by a faceless group of men who also control other corporations which make their profits from selling the supplies needed to kill people in war. No war, no profits. These faceless men care nothing for you and their interests are directly counter to yours. They do not discuss their plans with you.

Your vote is a joke. You are given a choice between two carefully constructed faces of the same illusion. One face is designed to be attractive to you if you are poor or if you have a social consciounce. The other is attractive if you hope to gain wealth or are self centered. Each "party" puts forth one candidate and you ostenibly get to choose between them. To get to the White House each man must persuade people to give him huge sums of money. Those sums do not come from the man on the street, but from the faceless men who control those corporations. They fund both candidates that you choose between. They do not discuss their decisions with you.

President Dwight Eisenhower was the last leader we had who was not a politician by profession. Everyone since has "risen through the ranks." Ike served our country through war in the military and peace as a president. He loved the US and gave his life to it. His career was at an end and he was giving his final address to the people of America. The culmination of decades of service. What would you expect he would say? What were the parting words of the man? He warned us of those faceless men. The military-industrial complex. The faceless men whose goals are to get tax money in return for weapons. Ike knew that those men could only sell weapons if someone used them. Ike knew that those faceless men were dangerous monsters and he tried to warn us. But they controlled the information bottlenecks that determine what you read in school, see in the papers, and watch on the TV. They do not discuss their decisions with you.

[paula_w]

Ok.... I certainly agree about neither party being attractive to vote for. But what you are saying is that its about weapons, along with money and oil. So besides oil, they are scrambling for weapons, which is exactly what we were told wasn't it?

Are you suggesting that we should vote for the candidate that we feel is powerful enough to keep us safe? And if conspiracy theories work all the way around - wouldn't the world partake in propaganda against the party that stands up to them?

No sarcasm in my questions, we've gotten this far- I 'm asking a very serious question.

Paula

[dorry]

Are you suggesting that we should vote for the candidate that we feel is powerful enough to keep us safe?


I would not be motivated by fear in my voting. Vote for the candidate that you think would best represent you as an american. It will be interesting to see what platforms they will run on. I expect most will do the side step and commit to nothing.

I know I mentioned this before, but Fahrenheit 9/11 opened my eyes to the fearmongering in this country. It wasn't an awakening where I suddenly believed something new, but rather it put into perspective what I had been seeing, but didn't realize the source.

He did a spot in Canada where he said ppl weren't drilled on a daily basis by fear from their media or government.... said many citizens didn't lock their doors, etc. Then he proceeded to knock on doors in Canada and many were unlocked. The Canadian in his boxer shorts was hilarious. I believe the spot was right across the river from Detroit (? sorry I don't feel like looking up the geography). The temperment across the border was amazing and eye opening.

Point being, we suffer as a country bombarded by fear from the media and government. Fear is a great way to control people. Conspiracy? Maybe. It certainly produces the results it wants, because most ppl are lazy and want someone else to do their thinking for them. They are easily manipulated into following the party line, and will gladly accept any savior that promises them safety.

After watching the movie I began to take note of the "good news" news and "fear news". The evidence was remarkable....for me anyway.



And if conspiracy theories work all the way around - wouldn't the world partake in propaganda against the party that stands up to them?


I'd answer that if I understood the question. My brain is having trouble today.

My beliefs are no more correct than your beliefs, Paula. The past 5 yrs was in many ways a confirmation (and escalation) of events that my immediate family saw coming 20+ years ago. We are no longer shocked by what we see, so it no longer upsets us. Personally, I think we are beyond the point of no return as a country. That's what I see. You may see things differently, and that's cool.

It's very cool that we can discuss this and no one has to get defensive. That's why I love clouds z. He/she doesn't care - says whats important to them. And that's what it's all about. Not which side of the fence you are on, but what you are passionate about, and the freedom to express it.

[paula_w]

Quote:
And if conspiracy theories work all the way around - wouldn't the world partake in propaganda against the party that stands up to them?
I'd answer that if I understood the question. My brain is having trouble today.
----
I'm referring to the world's ridicule of Bush - I would expect it from the outside but it's malicious and abnormally hateful within.

To follow Everett's post that everything is a conspiracy - couldn't the hatred of Bush and Republicans be a conspiracy [and one easily carried out by America's Democrats and others] that has been jumped upon globally to reinforce Americans hatred of their own leader? America thinks in terms of gang mentality when it comes to Bush. And couldn't the reason for this be because the world knows he will stand up to them. Israel would have stood up more too if the global threats hadn't stopped them. Now they look at us as weak and are threatening all kinds of things.

How can we possibly be compared to the terrorists? We went through the UN, brought up ignored resolutions, warned and warned, before going into Iraq.

And finally, if this country would drop its hatred and act like a nation standing behind its leader = not being fooled by all this [what very well could be] Democratic political propaganda about Bush, maybe we wouldn't have to listen to all the fearmongering because we would be united and face the threat together. Democrats make me feel less secure than Republicans and now the latter's resolve to defend us is being weakened.

Regardless of what political beliefs you have, what religion you are, what your values are,etc, I think you want to remain alive and free. That's how I am voting - nothing else counts.

Thanks for your patience and comments. I've wanted to discuss this calmly and share my thoughts and -yes -fears for so long. IT's not easy - if you don't bash Bush -you must like him- not so - just trying to understand and figure out who is making sense.

I'm thrilled that we are having this talk- it may at last allow me to focus on something else after finally getting it out and having someone respond with something other than an insult.

My brain aches,
Paula

[dorry]

My brain aches,
Paula

mine too! :D

[clouds z]

OK...we aren't at war because the borders would be sealed. That's a tall order isn't it? As usual, the diplomatic way is taking eons and no one agrees. I think it's too late for that, possibly. As recently shown in the UK, they already could be among us.

I share your sadness about the Iraqi citizens. But does anyone remember the pictures of the Iraqis cheering about 9/11? Even though there is no proven connection, terrorism in other places like Israel, which the Arab nations continuously threaten to blow off the face of the earth, was reduced after the removal of Saddam Hussein.

I agree with Kathy about the lack of understanding about tribal nations. Democracies don't attack each other, but apparently that doesn't apply to tribes. It's very hard to imagine that it wasn't taken into consideration.

My first reaction to 9/11 was that it was what we deserved. We have been greedy and they are finally coming after us. It didn't take long to get past that thinking. No one deserves that and here's what I can't understand, seriously - why do you not think the terrorists are at war with us? Why would you go so far out of your way to deny that 9/11 was an act of war against us? I lost an old high school friend and neighbor on that plane you are saying didn't crash into the Pentagon. If ghosts could communicate, wonder how he'd feel about the selling of those videos.

I agree that greedy corporations are slimes....just read about GDNF advocacy sometime, that's us fighting Amgen tooth and nail over a phase II clinical trial halt. But do you think big business stops with us? Do you think it doesn't exist in the Middle East or China?

I see our biggest problem being the war between the Democrats and the Republicans. It's not rational to me.

Remember these?


"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas, former U. S. Socialist Presidential Candidate (1936 and many other years)
"We cannot expect Americans to jump from capitalism to communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans doses of socialism until they suddenly awake to find out they have communism." - Nikita S. Khrushchev

This is a war with extremists, and we are NOT the extremists. Just be careful who you vote for - there is a danger of losing liberties at both ends of the spectrum.

I don't think Islamic terrorism fits in well with democracy. It bothers me that terrorists are either ignored or not at fault. We need to make a lot of changes in our country, but I can't see the Democrats [which is the party I am registered as] as doing anything but trying to get in office, at the expense of our global safety.

In other words, I don't trust them to fix it - they are shoving hatred of the person who is responsible for keeping us safe down our throats. Can you say that doesn't cause fear?

Paula



the pictures show no large plane crashed into the pentagon,unless they doctored the pictures

as to where your friend went -who knows

who knows where all the jews are that were shipped back to germany in ww2 as exchanges for american pows

who knows where all the soldiers are that were abandoned in ussr in ww2 by america

you tell me

[clouds z]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_(verb)

and who knows where all the shanghaied men went to- maybe theyre in china with Kwai Chang Caine aka david carridine

Shanghaiing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Shanghai (verb))
Jump to: navigation, search

"Shanghaied" redirects here. See also the SpongeBob SquarePants episode.

Shanghaiing was the act of forcibly conscripting someone to serve a term working on a ship, usually after having been rendered senseless by alcohol, drugs or a sharp blow to the head . The term was mainly used on the west coast of the United States. Any friendless man in port cities like San Francisco, Portland and Astoria, Oregon, and Seattle and Port Townsend, Washington was in danger of being "shanghaied" (an American slang that has since expanded to a generic term for any sort of trick, particularly stealing). Portland is especially notable because of the elaborate tunnel system used to transport shanghaied men known as the shanghai tunnels.

Unscrupulous ship's captains frequently availed themselves of this form of unfree labor, employing stratagems to force their crews to desert in ports before they had been paid off, then to replace the deserters with shanghaied men -- who in some cases were the same as those put off. Sometimes the seamen would find themselves shanghaied onto another vessel even before they had set foot on dry land, and might find themselves working for years with nothing to show for their labors.

The men who engaged in this form of kidnapping were known as crimps, and the groups of large, burly men they often hired as helpers were known as crimp gangs, or press gangs in reference to United Kingdom warship impressment. The most infamous examples included Jim "Shanghai" Kelly and Johnny "Shanghai Chicken" Devine of San Francisco, and Joseph "Bunco" Kelly of Portland. Stories of their ruthlessness are innumerable, and some have survived into print due to their rough humor. One such example involves the "birthday party" Shanghai Kelly threw for himself, in order to attract enough victims to man a notorious sailing ship named the Reefer and two other ships. Another was how Bunco Kelly passed a wooden Indian off to a desperate ship's captain as the last needed man.

The practice of shanghaiing men was not limited to Pacific ports, but due to the efforts of Samuel Plimsoll, the United Kingdom passed the Merchant Shipping Act in 1876, which severely curtailed the practice. Demand for manpower to keep ships sailing to Alaska and the Klondike kept this a real danger in American ports into the early 20th century, when with the help of Andrew Furuseth, Senator Robert LaFollette pushed through legislation in 1915 that made this practice a federal crime, and finally put an end to it.

The word "shanghai" comes from the city of Shanghai, in China. This terminology originated because Shanghai was a common destination of the ships likely to use shanghaied labor, and because Shanghai (being distant) was an unfortunate destination to be shanghaied for.

The romantic view of shanghaiing belies its cruelty, followed for economic gain and protected by corrupt politicians. The example of "Shanghai" Kelly's "birthday" party, noted above, is just such a romanticized fiction. Kelly was on a ship named the "Yankee Blade," which went down off what is now Lompoc, California, north of Santa Barbara. There was a some robbery and intimidation for a short time in the confusion which followed, but California Rangers were on board and put a quick end to the attempted lawlessness.

The men and women who shanghaied unfortunates had the economic incentive that they would receive the shanghaiing victim's first two months wages after the man had been shipped out onboard an outbound ship. Some shanghaiers made as much as $9,500 per year in 1890s dollars, equivalent to about $200,000 in 2006 dollars.

The shanghaiers were also well positioned politically to protect their lucrative trade. Sailors boardinghouse keepers supplied men on election day to go from one polling place to another, voting early and often for the candidate who would guarantee the shanghaiers' interests. In San Francisco, men like Joseph "Frenchy" Franklin and George Lewis, long time shanghaiers, were elected to the California state legislature, an ideal spot to assure that no legislation had a negative impact on their business.

The term "shanghai" supplanted the older term of "crimping" or "sailor thieves" in late 1852-early 1853 in San Francisco. This was a time when the coolie trade from China was getting into full swing, and the term the Chinese applied to the practice of kidnapping or otherwise forcing a Chinese into service as a coolie was "shang hai," which in the Mandarin dialect means to harm or injure. This term is sometimes translated as "to abduct," and was transferred to the practice of crimping prevalent in San Francisco and other ports around the world at that time.

The 1915 legislation in the United States was successful primarily due to the widespread use of steampowered vessels in the world's merchant marine services. Without acres of canvas to be furled and unfurled, the demand for unskilled labor greatly diminished.
[edit]

Bibliography

* Stewart Holbrook, "Bunco Kelly, King of the Crimps" in Wildmen, Wobblies and Whistle Punks. Corvallis: Oregon State University Press, 1992. ISBN 0-87071-383-3
* Samuel Dickson, "Shanghai Kelly", Tales of San Francisco Stanford: University Press, 1957.
* Bill Pickelhaupt, "Shanghaied in San Francisco," San Francisco: Flyblister Press, 1996. ISBN 0-9647312-2-3

[reverett123]

Democrats and Republicans are one and the same in that they work for the same people. They are there to make you believe that you are free. There is very little difference between the two. How could there be when the men who fund both insist on certain rules being followed? One of the rules is that you take your funding from them. Howard Dean's campaign devised a Web-based fundraising strategy that freed him from the purse strings. They used the media to bring him into line with the infamous "scream" without ever making it clear that the microphone which captured the outburst was the type that filtered out background noise and that, in fact, Dean had been addressing a raucous crowd and his antics were in keeping with that atmosphere. He hadn't played by their rules and you never had a chance to vote for him.

Bush bashing? A true opposition party with access to a professional media would have eviscerated Bush long ago. But Bush is doing what the faceless ones want. Bush is not one of them - Presidents never are. Cheney is much closer but even he is not part of the inner circle. Men in public positions are less powerful because they are more visible and their terms are limited. The ones in the darkness rule for life and answer only to one another.

The 9/11 questions are not Republican/Democrat feuding. They are the uneasy doubts in the minds of patriots of all stripes. Some of the most vocal are Republicans from the Reagan years - Conservatives from a time when that label meant something more than it does now.

The hard truth is that our elections have been stolen, our process perverted, our citizens killed by their own leaders to justify the start of a war of aggression, our press neutered, our treasury looted, and our country ruined.

[clouds z]

i heard democrats are more likely to beleive the gov story on 911 moreso

kinky friedman is running for governor in texas-he calls the two parties :dems and republicans ,the criips and the blood s-he says theyre the same

id vote for kinky

[paula_w]

Gotta get some zzzz all I can say to the last posts from Cloudz and Everett is how do you know that you know? Where does the cynicism and information come from?

tired...paula

[clouds z]

Gotta get some zzzz all I can say to the last posts from Cloudz and Everett is how do you know that you know? Where does the cynicism and information come from?

tired...paula
what do i know about what?all i know is what i read or heard

i know nothing special

where do you get your news?

try infowars.com

im weary of these discussions-maybe ill leave this forum

[paula_w]

Don't leave. I'll be going back to Parkinson's Room. I will need to sleep for two days now....I just had to vent.

nite..Paula

[dorry]

im weary of these discussions-maybe ill leave this forum



http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6702/cloudspostitgt7.jpg

[dorry]

The hard truth is that our elections have been stolen, our process perverted, our citizens killed by their own leaders to justify the start of a war of aggression, our press neutered, our treasury looted, and our country ruined.

Yep. The puppetmaster pulls the strings.

[ejbpesca]

How about we give CA and TX back to Mexico, leave Iraq, and invade Canada instead? They probably wouldn't even fight back. They have nice mountains and trees and things. They may not even mind our taking over. Good whiskey too!

[dorry]

Good whiskey too!

I hear the BC bud is pretty good too :D

[Curious]

How about we give CA and TX back to Mexico, leave Iraq, and invade Canada instead? They probably wouldn't even fight back. They have nice mountains and trees and things. They may not even mind our taking over. Good whiskey too!

dang...does this mean that i'll have to learn spanish? :confused: i guess it won't be so bad....i won't be looked at funny for eating choccy all the time. mole' sauce on everything!

[clouds z]

How about we give CA and TX back to Mexico, leave Iraq, and invade Canada instead? They probably wouldn't even fight back. They have nice mountains and trees and things. They may not even mind our taking over. Good whiskey too!


why should we ? we bought it from mexico ..they wanted to sell us baja california as well-talk like that infuriates me

it belonged to the indians anyway-and i may be descended from one of those tribes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_Purchase#Controversy

[ConsiderThis]

or are they?
I hope you keep posting, Clouds Z.

((((((((Clouds Z)))))))))

We need to not get too set in the old beliefs...

[ConsiderThis]

Have you guys all seen this material?

It was posted for me at another forum today, and I thought you might like to see it...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8430

check out the picture of the woman standing in the hole made by the plane...
do you think that is a real picture? it is just so startling to me... I wondered how you can tell if something has been changed in PhotoShop...

[J2636s]

Came up in the wrong thread....

[ConsiderThis]

People who believe in conspiracies may be silly...

But look how many views this topic has gotten!!!!!! ;)

I wish I had a smilie medal to give you, I don't. :(

But, here's a cookie for you!

http://health-boundaries-bite.com/images/ACookieforYourThoughts.gif