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LizaJane
02-17-2008, 07:18 PM
I've been taking alpha-lipoic acid for quite a while now, and in my last iherb order, changed it to R lipoic acid. Tomorrow I see my endo, for a regular checkup, with bloods drawn by another doctor last week showing that my T3 has dropped off significantly. Since I'm not sick, and dont have thyroiditis, it isn't clear why, but in cleaning out my mailbox, found this abstract I'd mailed myself in 2004. (I guess sometimes it's really good to be unable to delete anything).

Does anyone know about this? Do any of the other commonly taken supplements interfere with thyroid function? (carnitine, etc.?)

Arzneimittelforschung. 1991 Dec;41(12):1294-8. Related Articles, Links


Effect of alpha-lipoic acid on the peripheral conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine and on serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels.

Segermann J, Hotze A, Ulrich H, Rao GS.

Institute of Clinical Biochemistry, University of Bonn, Fed. Rep. of Germany.

The influence of alpha-lipoic acid (LA, thioctic acid, CAS 62-46-4) on thyroid hormone metabolism and serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels was investigated. In the first setup of experiments administration of LA together with thyroxine (T4) for 9 days suppressed the T4 induced increase of T3 generation by 56%. This suppression was similar to that affected by 6-propylthiouracil (54%). LA or T4 alone did not affect the cholesterol level, but together they led to a reduction. LA decreased the triglyceride level by 45%; the decrease induced by T4 or LA plus T4 was not significant. Total protein and albumin levels decreased by LA plus T4 treatment when compared to the LA control. The slight increase in glucose level by LA or T4 alone was not observed when they were administered together. In the second setup of experiments the administration of T4 for 22 days increased the serum T3 level 3-fold. When LA was combined with T4 and the treatment continued, the T3 production decreased by 22%. T4 reduced cholesterol level by 30%, and LA plus T4 further reduced it by 47%. The triglycerides were not affected. A moderate decrease in total protein was observed after treatment with T4 plus LA; T4 and LA plus T4 decreased the albumin level. The decrease in serum glucose by T4 recovers by LA treatment. These results demonstrate that LA interferes with the production of T3 from T4 when it is co-administered with T4. The elevated level of T3, after T4 administration, is reduced by treatment with LA.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

PMID: 1815532 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




mrsD
02-17-2008, 07:36 PM
Rev Port Cardiol. 2007 Jun;26(6):609-19.Links
Endothelial dysfunction in type 2 diabetes: effect of antioxidants.
[Article in English, Portuguese]

Sena CM, Nunes E, Louro T, Proença T, Seiça RM.

Instituto de Fisiologia, Faculdade de Medicina, Universidade de Coimbra, Coimbra, Portugal.

Individuals with insulin resistance and diabetes mellitus have increased cardiovascular morbidity and mortality, caused in part by vascular complications. Endothelial dysfunction has been implicated in the pathogenesis of vascular diabetic disease. This abnormal function of the vasculature precedes cardiovascular disease and is associated with impaired endothelium-dependent vasorelaxation. The main etiology of the increased mortality and morbidity of type 2 diabetic patients is atherosclerosis. Increased production of free radicals is associated with the pathophysiology of diabetes, resulting in oxidative damage to lipids and proteins. Reduction of oxidative stress in diabetic patients may delay the onset of atherogenesis and the appearance of micro- and macrovascular complications. Alpha-lipoic acid (LA) is a multifunctional antioxidant that has been shown to have beneficial effects on polyneuropathy and on markers of oxidative stress in various tissues. This study was conducted to investigate the effects of LA on endothelial function in diabetic and hyperlipidemic animal models. Carbohydrate and lipid metabolism, endothelial function, plasma malondialdehyde (MDA) and urinary 8-hydroxydeoxyguanosine (8-OHdG) were assessed in non-diabetic controls (Wistar rats), untreated diabetic Goto-Kakizaki (GK) rats and, atherogenic diet (AD)-fed GK rats (fed with atherogenic diet only, treated with alpha-lipoic acid and treated with vehicle, for 3 months). AD resulted in a 3-fold increase in both total and non-HDL serum cholesterol levels and in a 2-fold increase triglyceride levels while endothelial function was significantly reduce MDA and 8-OHdG levels were higher in the GK and GK hyperlipidemic groups and were completely reversed by the antioxidant. Hyperlipidemic GK diabetic rats showed significantly reduced endothelial function that was partially improved with LA. Furthermore, lipoic acid significantly reduced serum cholesterol levels, without lowering HDL cholesterol. Alpha-lipoic acid supplementation represents an achievable adjunct therapy to improve endothelial function and reduce oxidative stress, factors that are implicated in the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis in diabetes.

PMID: 17849945 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

It is not clear to me in the paper you posted, if the T4 and T3 were given to euthroid people...or hypo people.

You might want to read this list :
http://www.raysahelian.com/lipoic.html
Alpha lipoic acid side effects
There are no indications that low doses of lipoic acid, such as 5 to 20 mg, have side effects. Higher doses could cause nausea or stomach upset, along with over-stimulation, fatigue, and insomnia. High doses could also potentially lower blood sugar. This is often beneficial to patients who have diabetes, but it requires close monitoring of blood sugar levels. We have had one report of 300 mg of alpha lipoic acid taken 3 times a day for three weeks led to atrial fibrillation. Another person emailed that a 50 mg dose of R lipoic acid made him feel his heart racing, he took it at the same time as his thyroid medication Levothyroid. Those with thyroid problems may consider taking half a capsule of a 50 mg R alpha lipoic acid dose.

I have found that 100mg of R-lipoic is doing wonderful things for me.
I don't feel any loss of thyroid function at all. And I can't take it after noon, or I can expect some difficulty falling asleep.
In fact I just bought refills.

dahlek
02-17-2008, 07:46 PM
Any anti-seizure meds w/in 1-2 hours of other things. Calciums, Fish oils...I was on the whole menu until recently and am down to two daily [a vacation] and 3 optionals....IF you read the fine prints of any prescription med, you will find this in the 'interactions' at times, often not. YOu will have to call and ask. WHY? because most 'trials' are not done with folks on multiple meds! They only get feedback from us when we call and ask. I also do a back-up call to the FDA about any given med as well, as the FDA DOES track the calls they get w/the call the drug co's 'report'. [Then the FDA KNOWS the drug co is 'discounting' possible issues-and they DO act, I've seen it on some of my meds!] Then suss out the discrepancies. It is tedious, at best?
Since I'd been on five presciption meds prior to my 'vacation', and was trying to track down variables of the med interactions in blood tests, I found out that any supplements you take have to be an hour to three before or after any meds you take. This can get very complicated? As if it wasn't already? It just means you don't chug down all the AM pills all at once...just set your timer and take A, at X; B at Y; and so on. It is tedious.
It is nowhere clearly put. Only obscurely in the 'prescribing information' IF KNOWN of any prescribed medications. I do know I'd tried ALA and well, just didn't feel comforatable with it...Don't know why. gut feeling? Bad pun maybe...but opinon only in that respect. Wish I'd more at my fingertips, maybe someone else has... - j

LizaJane
02-17-2008, 09:01 PM
It was because all of the salubrious effects of lipoic acid that I've been taking it. And I've been taking it so long, that I just consider it one of the factors which is responsible for the great improvement I've had over the years.

But my thyroid numbers are awfully low now, and nothing has changed. I'm wondering if there isn't a relationship--maybe I need to take a lower dose.

Here's what my thyroids look like. Weird, because as my T3 and T4 go down, the TSH doesn't go up.

http://www.lizajane.org/PN/Users/lizajane/thyroid sheet.doc

If you're prompted for a program to open it with, it's a Word Document.

Tomorrow I see what the endo thinks.

mrsD
02-18-2008, 07:27 AM
you are taking high doses of the alpha form.

This is not a purified product and may have other actions in the body.

The R-lipoic does not have many or any papers that I can find on it.
The dose is much less too.

Let us know what you find.

Here is more information:
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/alpha-lipoic-000285.htm

I suspect this thyroid issue would have appeared since Europe has used this for a LONG time.
Also recall that carnitine action is also confused in thyroid patients. (since carnitine prevents bone tear
down in hyper patients, some extrapolate to others, inaccurately.)

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/la/index.html

LizaJane
02-21-2008, 04:37 PM
Thanks, Mrs D,

I've been to my endo; he never heard anything about lipoic acid, and I forgot to bring the abstract. But I'm definitely hypo, so he adjusted me meds, hoping that all my fatigue is not due to the sinuses. I stopped the lipoic and will be interested in how my numbers respond. Maybe I was just taking too much.

On the carnitine issue: My serum carnitine is always low, so I'm taking supplements. Nothing has been prescribed by my doctors, who don't really understand carnitine, so I just take what seems like a reasonable amount, and ask them to repeat the test whenever I get blood drawn. It's been in range.




you are taking high doses of the alpha form.

This is not a purified product and may have other actions in the body.

The R-lipoic does not have many or any papers that I can find on it.
The dose is much less too.

Let us know what you find.

Here is more information:
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/alpha-lipoic-000285.htm

I suspect this thyroid issue would have appeared since Europe has used this for a LONG time.
Also recall that carnitine action is also confused in thyroid patients. (since carnitine prevents bone tear
down in hyper patients, some extrapolate to others, inaccurately.)

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/la/index.html

chicken pot pie
11-11-2009, 08:38 PM
Has anyone here tried using alpha lipoic acid for thyroid problems, and if so, what type of thyroid condition did you take it for?

mrsD
11-12-2009, 06:25 AM
The effects on thyroid are not well documented. The study put up here was done on rats. There is only that one paper. Nothing else on PubMed. Since this study has not been replicated or
expanded upon, it remains murky at this point, IMO.
This one study has been picked up by many websites which mention it as POSSIBLE... that is because it is not confirmed in humans at this time, and r-lipoic has not been tested at all. R-lipoic was not available in 1991, as far as I know.

Dr. Sahelian has some information on it:
http://www.raysahelian.com/alphalipoicacid.html

stagger
11-12-2009, 11:28 AM
Last month my cholesterol results showed a drop from 250 down to 194, but my HDL dropped from 34 to 23. R-lipoic acid and Acetyl-L-carnitine were the only two new supplements added to my daily regulars. The Dr. could not explain why my HDL had dropped. I have not taken cholesterol meds since getting PN five years ago. Any one have suggestion as to the HDL drop, isn't this the good stuff?

mrsD
11-12-2009, 12:35 PM
It has recently been found that not all HDLs are good.

In fact I think the whole cholesterol whooohaaa is full of errors.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0416/054.html

I think the whole premise is flawed. You can raise some HDL with fish oil, or by eating salmon once or twice a week, if it concerns you.

I sure hope to soon see the REAL truth regarding cholesterol, not some manufactured Big Pharm HYPE.

glenntaj
11-13-2009, 06:58 AM
From what I've been able to review of the literature of the past thirty years, including a lot of European, Japanese, Israeli, and other studies (which I often tend to trust more than American ones, as there seems to be less likelihood they were influenced by the priorities of Big Pharma, which has much less lobbying influence in those places), the connection between cholesterol--whatever kind--and heart disease is not cut-and-dried at all. Much of it is circumstantial/correlational, not double-blinded, and there's often insufficient effort to distinguish among the effects of many kinds of cholesterol particles (there are far more than just HDL and LDL).

As just a broad stroke (and the Forbes article hints at this), triglyceride levels seem to have a much stronger link to heart disease than any specific type of cholesterol. Moreover, many people have high cholesterol levels without heart disease because they have low levels of inflammation--their cholesterol does not form as many fatty plaques on artery walls, as apparently some sort of inflammatory process is associated with getting the cholesterol to stick there. This is part of the reason for taking anti-inflammatory supplements such as fish oil and niacin in those who are susceptible--and why inflammatory measures such as C-reactive protein and/or homocysteine levels may be better indicators of heart disease risk.

I have a presonal interest in this--I've inherited from Mom the tendency to have high cholesterol levels. (Mom's been skinny as a rail all her life, but has always had high total cholesterol, HDL, LDL . . . ) I do a lot of supplementaion--and exercise, of course--to keep my triglyceride and C-reactive levels very low. My total cholesterol, HDL.. LDL levels are not optimal, but my triglycerides are consistently well below 100 and my C-reactive levels basically nonexistent. I'm hoping this is protective.

stagger
11-13-2009, 08:24 AM
I tend to believe that this cholesterol issue is another snow job and with the media has become another mind control gimmick paid for and by our medicine for profit system that exist in the good old USA. My mother is 93 gets around very well is alert and has high cholesterol, so if high cholesterol is good enough for my mother (who refuses these type of meds) its good enough for me, thanks for the genes mom. My PN began six weeks after taking Zocor in 8/23/2003. One good thing about the VA my medical records are only a mouse click away. Enjoy the day.

mrsD
11-13-2009, 08:32 AM
There are studies showing cholesterol is protective in the elderly.
Some studies show greater longevity in elderly with higher cholesterol levels. And it is thought to improve the immune system in the elderly as well.

http://www.modern-diets-and-nutritional-diseases.com/LDL-HDL-cholesterol.html
In the elderly high cholesterol seems to be protective stated Dr Harlan Krumholz and coworkers at the Yale University Department of Cardiovascular Medicine. Nine hundred ninety-seven people were followed over a 4 year period. Twice as many individuals had a heart attack or died with CHD who had low cholesterol compared to those who had the highest cholesterol.