virus and PD?

[lurkingforacure]

A friend recently told us that someone he knew was diagnosed with a significant heart problem...he wisely went to get a second opinion and the savvy doctor ran some tests and discovered the guy actually had a virus that was making it look like his heart had a problem. Took care of the virus and end of problem.

We can't help but wonder if a virus might be at play in the whole PD scenario, and so...

If someone wanted to get tested to be sure they didn't have any virus lurking around in their body, what tests do they get? Who do they go to-a virologist or an immunologist? Maybe a lurking virus causes PD outright or sets the wheels in motion, or maybe it only makes symptoms worse, meds not work as well, etc. But we are thinking of going to someone to be sure a virus is not at play anywhere.

Any experience or advice on this anyone may have would be very much appreciated, thanks.

[paula_w]

I hit thanks accidently but meant to hit reply. This is precisely what Rick wanted to work on in the neurotalk group - encourage communication among different specialists either by making entries into a wiki or listserve or something.

There is a high percentage of pd in teachers, who are around every germ on the planet, and a virus as possible cause is not a new idea. They are presenting these ideas, but how much are they actually doing with them?

We hear about subtypes. And again, wonder how much they are specifically working on this. Are we waiting for DNA testing to become cheaper and combine that with our EHR to go online? See you in the next life......

I have known that some wonder about a virus since I first came online. lfac, I am not directing this comment to your post or to you in any way. I'm still agitating and probably always will be loud about letting patient consumers be included, which adds honesty, urgency, and the models they need on the trip through the pipeline.

I dislike repetition, could never have settled for a career where you must do the same thing everyday. But this need for patient consumers concept is so overdue, that I'm not stopping till it happens. I'm committed....why do they even do clinical trials with the subtypes together that they already know about? There is tremor dominant and rigid, bradykinesia dominant.....why would they be expected to respond the same to treatment?

Why would we test a 71 year old man who is rigid/bradykinesia dominant with a 42 year old woman with tremor dominant symptoms and expect them to respond in the same way?

Does anyone know of trials where they separate even these two subtypes when designing the trial or analyzing the results? There have to be some, but they seem to be mixed in most.

Then the results, which Madelyn reminded us to day, are biased, the two phases use different language in their phase results, explanations that deliberately confuse the layman. You can't believe the articles. Jaye, could you please post what tips the good researchers off to the article as being "tabloid" research [my own term]. Was it "supplement"? Would you explain when you have time?

Am I incorrect, jumping to the wrong conclusions?....Just shooting my mouth off? ...How would I know that? Talking to us wastes their time is one view.

Darn ..... it's the holidays. Am I ruining some rich peoples' holidays? I doubt that anyone is paying attention. I must need to get a life.....well it's getting too late. So here I am, making noise to the end.

However, I do wish all of you faithful friends, posters, readers, caregivers, advocates, moderators, administrators, a very Happy Hanukkah, a very Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays to all.

We will need a thread about New Year' s Resolutions soon.

Sorry LFAC, all you did was post a few simple questions about getting a virus test. But it's 5 p.m. - my crazy sinemet paranoid schizo ramble hour, to which i have now had to add no solid foods to the metabolic mix, a no chew diet until I get a bridge and other dental work in January.

Down a pound to 115 today. I'm not going to stop making noise....many are older and have it much worse. They need someone to make noise for them.

sorry, but not sorry - i think you know what i mean.

paula
:grouphug:

A friend recently told us that someone he knew was diagnosed with a significant heart problem...he wisely went to get a second opinion and the savvy doctor ran some tests and discovered the guy actually had a virus that was making it look like his heart had a problem. Took care of the virus and end of problem.

We can't help but wonder if a virus might be at play in the whole PD scenario, and so...

If someone wanted to get tested to be sure they didn't have any virus lurking around in their body, what tests do they get? Who do they go to-a virologist or an immunologist? Maybe a lurking virus causes PD outright or sets the wheels in motion, or maybe it only makes symptoms worse, meds not work as well, etc. But we are thinking of going to someone to be sure a virus is not at play anywhere.

Any experience or advice on this anyone may have would be very much appreciated, thanks.

[reverett123]

I would not rule out a virus for one reason. The German researcher Braak laid out a pattern of spread marked by the Lewy bodies. The theory is that something is transported along the neuronal "railways". As to what it might be, no one knows. My own theory is that it is a bacterial toxin piggy backing on tiny particles of soot, but there is another possibility. The one thing known to travel those paths in a pattern eerily similar to Braak's findings is a virus - polio.

[paula_w]

So virus could be a subtype....rignt? so could parasites and illnesses of the colon...and on and on.
p

I would not rule out a virus for one reason. The German researcher Braak laid out a pattern of spread marked by the Lewy bodies. The theory is that something is transported along the neuronal "railways". As to what it might be, no one knows. My own theory is that it is a bacterial toxin piggy backing on tiny particles of soot, but there is another possibility. The one thing known to travel those paths in a pattern eerily similar to Braak's findings is a virus - polio.

[lindylanka]

On the old forum there was a discussion about a viral cause for PD. I remember being surprised that the virus discussed was likely the same as caused the viral pericarditis I had in my twenties. I think it was the coxsackie virus (?sp). I wonder if anyone else remembers this thread. Being a virus there was no treatment except bedrest and sedation - I have often wondered since if something like that stays in the body, similar to post-polio syndrome and other viral after effects.

This is definitely where patient input could be so useful, we know our histories, environments and progression, and we have a vested interest too....... I am on the side of multiple causes for pd, that the brain has the bbb because it is so very vulnerable to many insults......... I had a very interesting discussion recently with my PD nurse specialist who, unlike the neuros, sees people in their home environments dealing with everyday existence. She felt that consultants were more and more coming to believe that not only were there a multiplicity of causes, but in the future it will be seen to be a multiplicity of conditions, and the old definition of PD will change.

The changes in thinking seem to come oh so slowly though, with researchers haring off after the latest theory, and then changing direction over and again, with the medics coming up in the rear. I would like to see both groups really use their observational skills on people, we are the real white rats they should be looking at, the ones in the labs have artificially induced PD brains anyway.......... all this stuff is readily available but the definition is still in the 19th century....

Am I right in thinking that most subtypes only feature in very small group studies, where they are identified as anomalies, and that they are mostly ruled out of drug trials ? Paula, from what I have read about trials, and you would know a lot more about this than me, a lot of people don't fulfill the criteria, except that the two main groups, rigid and tremor dominant, for some reason don't get separated out.......

Sorry, I started on viral stuff, but paulas post interested me too........

Wishing you all peace love and happiness for the holidays and the year ahead, and many thanks to all for helping me stay afloat in good times and bad.

Lindy :grouphug:

[reverett123]

Researchers like Carvey at Rush in Chicago and Hong and Liu at the NIH have painted a pretty convincing picture of what sets the stage. A pregnant woman who experiences acute stress in the first weeks of pregnancy exposes the fetus to her natural steroids and his developing developing endocrine system is changed in a way that disrupts the body's control systems.

The same woman may expose the fetus to bacterial toxins as the result of infection and the developing immune system is hypersensitzed to further exposure. The ultimate outcome is damage in the substantia nigra from our own cells via inflammation.

The body normally deals with inflammation by way of the endocrine system's natural steroids. But chronic exposure can actually encourage inflammation. Ever see the Sorcerer's Apprentice?

Some critical system's become exhausted at an early age and our "bounce" factor is low. Life insults such as a virus or stressful job take a bigger toll. And the immune warriors continue their dance in our brains.

I see it as a two-fold problem in need of a two-fold solution. Repairing the SN may be possible, even imminent. But like the temporary respite of DBS, that doesn't address the other, which is the underlyng process. Oddly enough, however, I think that once we see that the repair can be real, that we as individuals can do a lot on the other. No more heroics. Let them keep the high stress job. Tell Junior or Mama that they've got to deal with their own problems because I'm going fishing. :)

[lurkingforacure]

We were not part of braintalk so missed out on prior posts there about viruses and PD. But we are intrigued by it, mainly because a possible connection between PD and a viral cause seems to resemble AIDS so closely...my understanding of AIDS is (generally, I have only extremely limited knowledge of this and don't mean to sound off about something I really dont' know much about)...you get infected without knowing it (or caring, in some cases), and the virus lays in wait, for years, sometimes even a decade or more. Why? What is going on during that time? What is that viral bug doing all that time between infection and manifestation of clinical symptoms? Is damage taking place, but undetected because there are no physical symptoms? It is fascinating.

And this is precisely our question: how would one even go about trying to find out if there were any foreign "intruders" in his or her body? They can test for a specific known virus, but what about an unknown virus, maybe one that has mutated into a different and wholly unrecognizable form? How would you find that out, what specialist do you see and what test do you ask for? Somehow I doubt we could just waltz into an immunologist's office and say "Run whatever test there is to see what critters might be inside me". Or not? That's what I was trying to find out.

[Ronhutton]

I have often wondered about the herpes virus and PD. This is the one that shows up in cold sores on the lips. I have suffered from cold sores from around 20 years ago, and I am in my 18th year with PD. I put zovirex ointment on the sores and it gets rid of them for a few weeks, but it has not erradicated the virus and back they come. Then of course there was the ensephylitus outbreak many years ago, leaving a flood of PDers in its wake.
How many others have the cold sore problem?
Ron

[lurkingforacure]

I have often wondered about the herpes virus and PD. This is the one that shows up in cold sores on the lips. I have suffered from cold sores from around 20 years ago, and I am in my 18th year with PD. I put zovirex ointment on the sores and it gets rid of them for a few weeks, but it has not erradicated the virus and back they come. Then of course there was the ensephylitus outbreak many years ago, leaving a flood of PDers in its wake.
How many others have the cold sore problem?
Ron

Yes, and what triggers that cold sore? A ton of people have this and they will get a sore, then it will go away, maybe they are good for years, and then boom, there's another outbreak. What is that virus doing all that time in the body? Is is just lying around, choosing not to be active, or is the body working on suppressing it the whole time until something happens and the body is overwhelmed and cannot fight it anymore and then you see the fever blister? Anybody know?

And that's another point: so many people have viruses lurking in their body, and it is not until there is an erruption (AIDS, fever blister, etc.) and the body manifests with physical symptoms that you even know there is this alien in the body. Without any manifestation of physical symptoms, how would one find out their body had been invaded?

And I guess I am really asking these questions because if PD were like herpes, and we could control the virus...well, then we could control PD. Or maybe this is way too simplistic.

[reverett123]

Generally speaking, a virus would remain dormant until its environment changed. In this case it would normally be a stressor that triggered it. Shingles is another example.


Yes, and what triggers that cold sore? A ton of people have this and they will get a sore, then it will go away, maybe they are good for years, and then boom, there's another outbreak. What is that virus doing all that time in the body? Is is just lying around, choosing not to be active, or is the body working on suppressing it the whole time until something happens and the body is overwhelmed and cannot fight it anymore and then you see the fever blister? Anybody know?

And that's another point: so many people have viruses lurking in their body, and it is not until there is an erruption (AIDS, fever blister, etc.) and the body manifests with physical symptoms that you even know there is this alien in the body. Without any manifestation of physical symptoms, how would one find out their body had been invaded?

And I guess I am really asking these questions because if PD were like herpes, and we could control the virus...well, then we could control PD. Or maybe this is way too simplistic.

[olsen]

Husband developed shingles ~3 yrs prior to PD diagnosis and ~2 yrs prior to first physical symptoms of PD.
Think I have mentioned an evolutionary biologist, Paul Ewald, before. an introductory article appeared in the Atlantic Monthly in 1999. Part I, II and III of the article:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99feb/germs.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99feb/germ2.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99feb/germ3.htm

He maintains diseases that occur in a siginficant % of the population (?>1% -i cannot remember the correct #) are all infectious in origin, and that history of determining etiologies of diseases bears him out. I find his writings fascinating and heard him speak ~4 yrs ago to a group of oncologists. At this lecture, he emphasized that HPV is associated with cervical cancer; H pylori with gastric carcinoma; hepatitis B associated with 50% of cases of primary liver cancer ; EBV (epstein barr virus)which causes lymphomas and nasopharyngeal carcinoma, and noted several other infectious agents being studied for their association to other diseases: ie C pneumoniae and atherosclerosis, among others.
madelyn

[girija]

Hi,
Thanks for starting a good discussion. As Olsen pointed out several disorders are due to or atleast associated with pathogens, including viruses and bacteria. Atherosclerosis is the most recent disorder to that list. Pathogens such as CMV, Chlymedia, Pneumococci and several oral pathogens seem to contribute to atherosclerosis. Similarly a group of pathogens could contribute to PD. At this point, we donot have enough data for this hypothesis. If I were to imagine how this process goes, this is one way:

Any single virus or bacteria alone may not cause PD, but if one is prone to PD, there are a couple of ways pathogens enhance that. Two sets of reactions (at minimum) are going on simultaneously within the body contributing to PD. here is the sequence of events

Exposure to pesticides or some other genetic factor triggers PD

person also gets infected with virus x: infection-induced chronic inflammation, toxins released weaken BBB. Inflammatory cytokines and toxins enter brain and cell death amplified.

Many pathogens specially viruses have proteins that are similar to human proteins. For example virus X has a protein similar to a human neuronal protein. person gets infected with virus x
Body generates immune responses to virusX, makes antibodies, but the antibodies can attack both virus and neurons

Patients' BBB is already compromised due to infections. Antibodies, immune cells go into brain and start killing self cells.

What evidence do I have for this hypothesis?
Pesticides and genetic alterations in PD is established.

Infections and PD connection is there, established????

Leaky BBB adn PD: dont know

Ibuprofin treatment which controls inflammmation was reported to slow down PD. anti 0xidants do the same

Amantadine which was originally discovered as anti-viral drug works for PD

Recent paper by a French group shows (in mice) that if immune cells (T cells) are deleted, PD progression becomes slow whih means no auto immune responses and hence no cell death.

Stem cell transplants in animals helped to relieve symptoms for a short period of time, animals were not cured. experimental reports suggested that transplanted cells either died or didnot function. This to me means body is making auto immune responses and killing or silencing transplanted cells.

This whole thing can be tested relatively easily.

Now coming to your question: There are blood tests checking for antibodies as well as pathogen DNA to figure out whihc of the known pathogens are associated with PD.

General inflammation and responses to infection can be measured.

various lab techniques are needed to figure out if PD is auto immune

identifying the pathogen involved in PD will require efforts similar to whats been going on with HIV research

If really a virus is invovled in PD.........treatment for PD will be the same as HIV and AIDS.

Any comments or suggestions?
Girija

[paula_w]

Although I haven't had it in awhile, I've had a recurring fungus for probably 30 years. It's round and resembles ringworm in appearance but isn't. I don't treat it anymore, it goes away on its own. Doctor said it involves the immune system. Is this another factor? Anyone else have fungi?

paula

[Lara]

I've been reading all these recent discussions with much interest. This and the BBB discussions are of interest to me because of family connections with a Tic disorder, Sydenham's Chorea, Autism spectrum. (and the hypothesis of PANDAS - Paediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococci).

I don't want to butt in on your thread but remember there's also Sydenham's Chorea (once known as St Vitus' Dance) which is a movement disorder associated with Rheumatic Fever.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001358.htm

http://www.wemove.org/syd/syd.html

Acute rheumatic fever (ARF) is a delayed inflammatory reaction in response to a streptococcal bacterial infection (i.e., with group A beta-hemolytic streptococci).

The specific underlying mechanism(s) responsible for development of ARF remain unknown. However, evidence suggests that the disorder may result from an abnormal immune reaction in which antibodies produced in response to the invading bacterium act against certain of the body's own cells.

http://www.wemove.org/syd/syd_sym.html

Sydenham's chorea is considered a neurological complication following infection with particular strains of streptococci (i.e., group A beta-hemolytic streptococci). The initial illness is usually characterized by a sore throat (pharyngitis) that may be followed, within approximately 1 to 5 weeks, by the sudden (acute) onset of rheumatic fever. The symptom-free period between recovery from pharyngitis to the onset of acute rheumatic fever (ARF) is known as the "latent period." ARF is an inflammatory disease (i.e., sequelae) following group

EDITED to add -
This article also mentions PD.

J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry. 1995 February; 58(2): 184–191.
ooops, I forgot the link. Here it is.

Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1073315)

Advance information and movement sequencing in Gilles de la Tourette's syndrome.
N Georgiou, J L Bradshaw, J G Phillips, J A Bradshaw, and E Chiu

<snipped article> Although the underlying pathogenesis is still speculative, it is concluded that there is much to support the notion that Tourette's syndrome may stem from abnormalities of the major pathways between the basal ganglia and the frontal lobes.

Please note that is a pretty old piece of work but it was one of the articles I'd saved in my bookmarks that mentions both Tourette Syndrome and Parkinson's Disease. Thing is that here we are in almost 2009 and they're still searching for answers.

[Jaye]

Paula, I remember talking about that. A neurologist told me that the big pharmas will buy a huge amount of additional space from medical journals, beyond what the journal usually prints. This material consists of articles written by doctors in the pay of the drug company to be a tester for their drug. There's nothing wrong with that, since doctors are needed to do the testing and the money from the pharma helps pay the doctors' salaries so they don't have to leave the academic environment where they're doing research. The articles, though, will tend to be taken with a grain of salt.

At a PAN (Parkinson's Action Network) Public Policy Forum, I forget which one, Story Landis, Director of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS) since 2003, began her talk by saying that yes, they do talk across disciplines all the time, and yes, they do keep aware of what others are working on. I gathered that there are usually a lot of questions along those lines.

One way of increasing patient-researcher interaction is to participate in research, if possible. The researchers I've worked with have spent a lot of time with me out of sheer gratitude to me for letting myself be tested. I entered the neurological scene a pretty good knowledge of general medical terminology, and I've looked up a lot of words along the way. There is a medical dictionary link at the top of this page.

Our beloved orgs usually have something about the state of the art on their websites, don't they? if not, keeping track of who's doing what ongoing research would be a good job for the orgs, wouldn't it? Barring that, folks could look at the NINDS Funding News at http://www.ninds.nih.gov/funding/nindsnotes/112008/index.htm for November, for example, for a glimpse into the future.

I have for many years been receiving the AMEDEO updates in my e-mail. Their subscription procedures are at http://www.Amedeo.com/. It's essentially a clipping service for the disease of your choice. Also see http://www.freemedicaljournals.com/.

There is a PubMed link at the top of this page. I just entered "Parkinson's virus" without the quotes and got a list of 617 articles. Ignoring everything on viral vectors and other nonrelated (to this discussion), at #11 on my search results was:
Viral parkinsonism.
Jang H, Boltz DA, Webster RG, Smeyne RJ.
Biochim Biophys Acta. 2008 Aug 12. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 18760350 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher
so I clicked on the title and got:
Biochim Biophys Acta. 2008 Aug 12. [Epub ahead of print] Links
Viral parkinsonism.

Jang H, Boltz DA, Webster RG, Smeyne RJ.
Department of Developmental Neurobiology, St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, Memphis, TN, USA.

Parkinson's disease is a debilitating neurological disorder that affects 1-2% of the adult population over 55 years of age. For the vast majority of cases, the etiology of this disorder is unknown, although it is generally accepted that there is a genetic susceptibility to any number of environmental agents. One such agent may be viruses. It has been shown that numerous viruses can enter the nervous system, i.e. they are neurotropic, and induce a number of encephalopathies. One of the secondary consequences of these encephalopathies can be parkinsonism, that is both transient as well as permanent. One of the most highlighted and controversial cases of viral parkinsonism is that which followed the 1918 influenza outbreak and the subsequent induction of von Economo's encephalopathy. In this review, we discuss the neurological sequelae of infection by influenza virus as well as that of other viruses known to induce parkinsonism including Coxsackie, Japanese encephalitis B, St. Louis, West Nile and HIV viruses.
Some definitions off the top of my head in my own words:
etiology - the cascade of events that leads to the disease state
encephalopathy - pathology or disease state of the brain
sequelae - conditions that follow as a result of the disease in question.

I can't wait till the article is old enough to appear on the Free Medical Journals site. In the meantime I've got a life to live, and I'm tired from singing in two major festival services last night, on my feet mostly, including rehearsals, for about six hours :eek: so I'm off to bed and wishing all a wonderful Christmas or a Teriffic Thursday, you pick.

My point, if I have one, is that there is more openly available information than is generally thought, IMHO.

Jaye

[reverett123]

While the study below is talking about depression in particular, it makes clear that the potential problems are not limited to the action of a pathogen but also includes our response to its presence. An extreme case is septic shock in which death results not from bacterial action but rather an over reaction on the part of our own systems. In the case of PD, a similar hyper-response by the microglia in the brain kills neurons. In the case of Ron's bad tooth, it wasn't just the toxins flooding his system. There was probably enough "neuroendocrine and neurotransmitter sensitization" involved to kill a lesser man (or at least a less stubborn one :D )

1: Stress. 2003 Mar;6(1):19-32.

Stress and cytokine-elicited neuroendocrine and neurotransmitter sensitization:
implications for depressive illness.

Hayley S, Merali Z, Anisman H.

Institute of Neuroscience, Carleton University, Canada. shawnhayley@sympatico.ca

Stressful events, by their effects on neurotransmitter and neuroendocrine
processes, are thought to favor the development or exacerbation of depressive
illness. In as much as immunological challenge, may provoke stressor-like
neuroendocrine and central neurochemical changes, the view was offered that
immune activation essentially acts like a stressor and may contribute to the
evolution of affective illness. In this respect, viral and bacterial infections
appear to influence behavioral/metabolic (e.g. fever, anorexia, somnolence) and
neurotransmitter functioning through the release of cytokines, which act as
messengers between the immune system and brain. The present report provides a
brief overview of the neurochemical consequences of proinflammatory cytokine
treatments, particularly the actions of interleukin (IL)-1beta and tumor
necrosis factor-alpha. As well, synergy with psychogenic and neurogenic
stressors are described, as are data showing that cytokines, like stressors, may
have time-dependent proactive (sensitization) effects, so that reexposure to the
treatments greatly augments hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal activity, as well as
central neurochemical changes. Indeed, the neurotransmitter alterations are not
restricted to hypothalamic nuclei, but occur in several extrahypothalamic sites,
including various limbic regions. It is suggested that by virtue of these
neurochemical changes, cytokines may have both immediate and proactive effects
on mood states.

PMID: 12637204 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Ronhutton]

I mentioned earlier that the only virus I am aware of having is the Herpes virus (cold sores). I asked whether there was anyone else but there was a nil response. However, I did a short search and found it is common in PD to have this virus. For example

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowPDF&ArtikelNr=114785&Ausgabe=234417&ProduktNr=223840&filename=114785.pdf
"The main finding was a higher herpes simplex complement-fixing antibody level in patients with Parkinson disease than in controls."

However there is a link to brain injury encephalitis,

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080902221735.htm
The most common symptom of infection is a cold sore, but in some individuals the virus can also cause life-threatening inflammation of the brain (encephalitis); 70% of individuals who do not get treatment for this condition die

From the excellent paper Jaye turned up by Jang et al, and the above, viruses are common causes of brain injury. There is a similar connection in Alzheimers. The question I find myself asking is is this true of all viruses or are certain ones more likely to be involved in the etiology of PD.
How do we erradicate them from our system? I did a quick search, but it appears the same as PD, you manage the symptoms but can't erradicate the virus!! A 2008 reference says:

http://www.ahmf.com.au/health_professionals/guidelines/pdf/AHMF_ManagingOralHerpes.pdf
"Cold sores are unsightly and uncomfortable and therefore there is great
interest in finding effective remedies. At present, there is no way of eradicating
the latent infection and treatments are directed solely at control of each
outbreak"

Ron

[lurkingforacure]

I have not read everything posted in this thread yet, but I am wondering why, as Ron pointed out, you can't eradicate the virus that causes cold sores? What damage, if any, is it doing in the body while it sits there, waiting for the next outbreak?

I wonder if eradication has not been found possible by the medical community because they are looking in the wrong place-nutrition. Many have posted about food here before, including the mainstream medical community's woeful lack of education and emphasis on it. We KNOW curcumin gets rid of h pylori, and although that is a "bacteria" and not techinically a "virus", perhaps it is not too far a leap to be able to do the same for PD.

To do that, we would need to know what the virus(es) is/are that causes or contributes to PD, and then find what foods/supplements impact it. Perhaps there are many viruses that are implicated, or only one, and maybe that one virus doesn't even have to be the same from one person to the next to cause PD-ish symptoms...this would explain the variation in symptoms from person to person.

Let me see what my research attempts can turn up. I've got little kids, so this could take some time, but I'm on it.

[lurkingforacure]

My post, which I tried to edit but it didn't work, should have read that mainstream medicine is looking in the wrong places and is NOT looking into nutrition as a possible way to cure herpes and other viruses. Geez, I need to learn how to properly use these buttons!

[lurkingforacure]

At first blush, there is tons of info out there about this, but a ton of it relates to AIDS, animals, and then there are all those hackers trying to hack their product. But I did find this, which is a great overview:


"Nutrition, immunity and infection: From basic knowledge of dietary manipulation of immune responses to practical application of ameliorating suffering and improving survival" ...here's the link (Note this quote: "It is now established that nutritional deficiency is commonly associated with impaired immune responses, particularly cell-mediated immunity, phagocyte function, cytokine production, secretory antibody response, antibody affinity, and the complement system (1, 5, 6)."):

http://www.pnas.org/content/93/25/14304.extract

[lurkingforacure]

Everything I have read says that all viruses are contagious, otherwise they would die out (have to have a host, apparently). The methods of spreading from one host to another vary, such as the common cold (simply breathing in the air) versus AIDS (actual physical involvement).

So then the question becomes, if a virus or viruses are involved in PD, why haven't the spouses and children of the family member with PD fallen ill also? I tried to search this out and everything I found said PD is NOT contagious and I was unable to find more than two isolated and non-related cases where both spouses had PD (or a PD and Lewey Body). And MJF had children AFTER dx, and his wife and beautiful family look the picture of perfect health. This makes me wonder if a virus might not be involved after all.

Maybe the virus sets the stage but isn't the actual catalyst. Or maybe the non-PD spouse has superior immunity to the virus and just doesn't get it despite contact (but then I think how impossible that really is-all nonPD spouses can't be THAT healthy!). hmmmmm...

[reverett123]

This link is to an NIH online text "Polymicrobial Diseases" and a discussion of combined virus/bacteria diseases. It is actually readable-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=pmd&part=IV.bxml

and this one takes you to a site about the Marshall Protocol which is very similar to what you are looking for.

[Ronhutton]

Hi Lurkingforacure,
You are doing the right thing asking yourself such questions. It is a surefire way of making progress in research.
I think combined with "What if?" you can make progress. What if having a virus like the Herpes virus, or an infection like Helicobacter Pilori, needed to be combined with a defective BBB? There is no rule which says you can't have two things wrong with you at the same time, and the odds can't be too high.
The Herpes virus is widespread, yet many people have it who don't have PD. The same thing goes for many infections. However, if you are unlucky enough to have maybe a genetic fault rendering you to have a dysfunctional BBB, you would be at the mercy of every virus and bacteria lurking in your system.
See the reference in my last post,

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0902221735.htm
The most common symptom of infection is a cold sore, but in some individuals the virus can also cause life-threatening inflammation of the brain (encephalitis);

Such infections are shown to lead to brain inflammmation, due to the leaky BBB. If you add "who have a defective BBB" after "some individuals, it makes a lot more sense. In a healthy person, (with a functioning BBB) they can be infected with the odd virus or bacteria, and the toxins circulate harmlessly in the blood. When you suffer from a leaky BBB, they get into the brain.
If you read my past posts, you will see everything which tightens the permeability of the BBB (like curcumin), improves symptoms, everything which widens it, like stress, causes an accentuatuation of PD. It all becomes a lot clearer, yet it is not a far fetched explanation.
Ron

[Lara]

Maybe the virus sets the stage but isn't the actual catalyst. Or maybe the non-PD spouse has superior immunity to the virus and just doesn't get it despite contact (but then I think how impossible that really is-all nonPD spouses can't be THAT healthy!). hmmmmm...

Or maybe there is a genetic predisposition in the one (PD) person that is not in the other.

[girija]

This recent thread adds a bit more to PD and autoimmunity discussion. Bumping it up.

Girija

[Ronhutton]

Lara,
I think the simple reason why spouses do not get PD as well, is although they may probably get infected with the same virus or infection, they have a good functioning BBB which keeps out the toxins from the brain.
Those of us with PD, have it because we have lost the protection of our BBB. Our BBB is dysfunctional, and allows substances into the brain that it should keep out. It is possible a leaky BBB is genetic.
I remember William Frey in one of his publications years ago, said "If a leaky BBB allows bad things into the brain, it could be used to allow good things in too". He then did the research on using it as a method of drug delivery via the nasal route.
Ron

[CTenaLouise]

Dr. Robert O. Becker -who was born in 1923 & passed away in 2008
was a great mind - he had many theories about electromagnetic energy fields.
in his book Cross Currents - Chapter 11
http://omega.twoday.net/20060718/

Dr. Becker refers to several neurodegenerative illnesses as -
the "New Plagues" - and he specifically calls "Parkinson's Disease"
one of these plagues...
do the research...
http://www.emfbioshield.com/books/crosscurrents.html
we need to think for ourselves.

[Lara]

I'm trying to not overstep the bounds of copyright here. :eek: It's difficult trying to cut down a very long article.

From Medscape Nurses.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/574944_1
From Laboratory Medicine
Chronic Bacterial and Viral Infections in Neurodegenerative and Neurobehavioral Diseases

Posted 06/23/2008
Author Information
Garth L. Nicolson, PhD, Department of Molecular Pathology, The Institute for Molecular Medicine, Huntington Beach, CA

<snipped article>

Often, patients with neurodegenerative or neurobehavioral diseases have chronic, neuropathic infections that could be important in disease inception, disease progression, or increasing the types or severities of signs and symptoms.

Although controversial, the majority of patients with various neurodegenerative or neurobehavioral conditions, such as amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, and autistic spectrum disorders, show evidence of central nervous system or systemic bacterial and viral infections.

Although chronic infections were not found in some studies, and the specific role of chronic infections in neurological disease pathogenesis has not been determined or is inconclusive, the data suggest that chronic bacterial or viral infections could be common features of progressive neurodegenerative and neurobehavioral diseases.

Inflammation and autoimmune responses have also been attributed to other chronic infections found in PD.[115-117] Indeed, experimental models of PD have been developed using neurological, viral, or bacterial infections to initiate the pathogenic process.[118,119]

In humans, spirochetes have been found in Lewy bodies of PD patients.[29] Other infections, such as viral encephalitis,[120] AIDS-associated opportunistic infections of the basal ganglia,[121] coronavirus,[122] and other infections,[63,123,124] have been found in PD and could be important in stimulating inflammation and autoimmune responses.

Richy and Mégraud[125] have stressed, however, that more rigorous investigations will be required to establish whether a causal link exists between infections and PD.

references...

29 Halperin JJ, Kaplan GP, Brazinsky S, et al. Immunologic reactivity against Borrelia burgdorferi in patients with motor neuron disease. Arch Neurol. 1990;47:586–594.
63 Nicolson GL. Systemic intracellular bacterial infections (Mycoplasma, Chlamydia, Borrelia species) in neurodegenerative (Alzheimers, MS, ALS) and behavioral diseases (Autistic Spectrum Disorders). Townsend Lett. 2008;295:74–84.
115 Barker RA, Cahn AP. Parkinson's disease: an autoimmune process. Int J Neurosci. 1988;43:1–7.
116 Wersinger C, Sidhu A. An inflammatory pathomechanism for Parkinson's disease. Curr Med Chem. 2006;13:591–602.
117 Arai H, Furuya T, Mizuno Y, et al. Inflammation and infection in Parkinson's disease. Histol Histopathol. 2006;21:673–678.
118 Ogata A, Tashiro K, Nukuzuma S, et al. A rat model of Parkinson's disease induced by Japanese encephalitis virus. J Neurovirol. 1997;3:141–147.
119 Beaman BL, Canfield D, Anderson J, et al. Site-specific invasion of the basal ganglia by Nocaardia asteriodes GUH-2. Med Microbiol Immunol. 2000;188:161–168
120 Ickenstein GW, Klotz JM, Langohr HD. Virus encepthalitis with symptomatic Parkinson syndrome, diabetes insipidus and panhypopituitarism. Fortschr Neurol Psychiatr. 1999;67:476–481.
121 Maggi P, de Mari M, Moramarco A, et al. Parkinsonism in a patient with AIDS and cerebral opportunistic granulomatous lesions. Neurol Sci. 2000;21:173–176.
122 Fazzini E, Fleming J, Fahn S. Cerebrospinal fluid antibodies to coronavirus in patients with Parkinson's disease. Mov Disord. 1992;7:153–158.
123 Alasia DD, Asekomeh GA, Unachuku CN. Parkinsonism induced by sepsis: A case report. Niger J Med. 2006;15:333–336.
124 Fiszer U, Tomik B, Grzeslowski P, et al. The antibodies against Bordetella pertussis in sera of patients with Parkinson's disease and other non-neurological diseases. Acta Neurol Scand. 2004;110:113–117.
125 Richy F, Mégraud F. Helicobacter pylori infection as a cause of extra-digestive diseases: Myth or reality? Gastroenterol Clin Biol. 2003;27:459–466.