Talking frankly

[DMACK]

I recently read NIK-KEY's thread re Suicide...................i pondered now i respond.


PICTURE THIS SCENARIO


you meet a new friend[opposite sex]

you like each other and arrange a date.

7pm at the cinema for a film you are wanting to see.

you arrive early...........6.45 [your choice]

7pm arrives your date is not there.

you wait.............i will give them 15 Min's you say out loud.

7.15 comes and goes .....you still wait hoping they arrive...........

7.30 the trailers have started.........no sign of your date ...yet you still wait patiently...........................

At 7 .45 you ring your date ...too see if a problem has occurred..


upon ringing your proposed date answers

conversation

HI......WHERE ARE YOU I HAVE BEEN HERE SINCNCE 6.45

oh I'm sorry i felt like staying in tonight and watching TV

OK ...I IMIGHT SEE YOU ANOTHER DAY.

yes, that would be nice


You may be thinking what was that about


i will now tell you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


The person who went to the cinema, chose to do so ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and do so early.


The person due to meet the person at the cinema chose not to go but stay home and do what they wanted to do ...............

The person who arrived early at the cinema and waited .............and.. past the time originally arranged too meet... chose to do this the person they were due to meet chose to dry their hair and not attend...................


WHO IS IN THE WRONG ????????????????????????????/////////

NOBODY


we all have a choice................not ...............that others like that choice but a choice....................
A..problem to one PERSON.................. is a molehill..................

TOO AN OTHER................... IT IS A MOUNTAIN..................................








SUICIDE..............IS A MOUNTAIN.. too those who regretably succeeed
but to those left behind it appears.......a mole hill......of in-significant problems


SADLY NOT ALWAYS THE CASE.

too those who have lost please dont ask why...ask how can iprevent another............


its not easy.................if it was meant to be any death would be easy

NIK-KEY states....................suicide to be worse.............it is and its not.............


some one with terminal cancer....takes their life it appears understood and then,

some one with gambling debts and two partners on the go... and money prolems ....................taes their life ..............and the main stream world say's that's ok


He deservered it.



.......................................

Never judge a suicide...........................unless your uin that persons head and thoghts..........which you cant be...................


that means dont judge.......................

ACCEPT LIFE & ITS FRAILTIES

[Nik-key]

((David)) I hope I have not offended you in my post about how to cope with my emotions after my Dad's suicide. It was not my intention. I also hope I do not offend you when I say I feel in the example that you have given, the person who did not show up for the date was rather selfish. Yes it was their choice to make. But it was not a choice that took into account anyone else’s feelings. In this example a simple phone call could have saved a lot of unnecessary hurt.

Suicide isn't as easy to deal with. I certainly wasn't given any choice in my Dad’s suicide.
I try not to judge anyone. I am not God, it is not my job or my right. I do not judge anyone who has thoughts about suicide. I know everyone has their own battles they must fight.

Having said that, I do however believe I have a certain right, every right, to question my Dad's choice. My life has been completely destroyed due his choice to kill himself. His act affected every single aspect of my life. So though I can not possibly know what was haunting him that day... I know what is haunting me now, and I am sure it will until I draw my last breath :(

This is what makes this forum family work. We each bring with us our own experiences and knowledge. We can see the war from both sides and hopefully through sharing we can reach others and save them from the hell we each know.

[DMACK]

DEAR NIK-KEY

The hell we both know is so true dear friend......................

my anaalogy if overly simplistic was what someone conveyed to me 20 years ago ........................what yoy feel.....is not what others feel........


what you see.............is not what others see................

AS INDIVIDUAL HUMAN ENTITIES we experience things no-one else will expereience,

in your Darkest hour NIK-KEY.......i want you to truthfully know our Father did not intentionaly committ an act that was diliberatel;y done to disturb or upset you.....your Father reached a point were HE DECIDED it was time to end HIS inner turnoil........................

I'M SO SORRY YOUR HURTING. DEAR friend........................................

[Nik-key]

((David)) Thank you :hug: When I first came here you gave me peace. Consumed in deep pain all I remember was being overwhelmed, consumed in my grief. I remember so clearly everyone telling me how much Dad loved me, how I was his whole world. I remember thinking, sobbing, well he damn well didn't love me enough now did he! I remember wishing I could just go with him :(

You dear friend told me that I needed to try and understand that when Dad took his life all rational thought had left him. He wasn't able to think about me, our family... he was consumed in HIS pain ....making rational thought impossible. That helped me more than I can ever put words to.:hug: You gave me strength to stay, to fight my war.:hug:

And David, I am so sorry for all the pain you have had as well :hug:

[Brokenfriend]

Bless your hearts. BF Steve:hug::hug::hug:

[Alffe]

((David)) I hope I have not offended you in my post about how to cope with my emotions after my Dad's suicide. It was not my intention. I also hope I do not offend you when I say I feel in the example that you have given, the person who did not show up for the date was rather selfish. Yes it was their choice to make. But it was not a choice that took into account anyone else’s feelings. In this example a simple phone call could have saved a lot of unnecessary hurt.

Suicide isn't as easy to deal with. I certainly wasn't given any choice in my Dad’s suicide.
I try not to judge anyone. I am not God, it is not my job or my right. I do not judge anyone who has thoughts about suicide. I know everyone has their own battles they must fight.

Having said that, I do however believe I have a certain right, every right, to question my Dad's choice. My life has been completely destroyed due his choice to kill himself. His act affected every single aspect of my life. So though I can not possibly know what was haunting him that day... I know what is haunting me now, and I am sure it will until I draw my last breath :(

This is what makes this forum family work. We each bring with us our own experiences and knowledge. We can see the war from both sides and hopefully through sharing we can reach others and save them from the hell we each know.

Asking WHY??? How could you do this? Asking it over and over is part of what survivors have to go through when our loved ones make this choice.

Trying to relearn this language of suicide in order to help people live with the results of being left behind is difficult for me because old habbits die hard..."choice" is no longer a desirable word to use. ~sigh Saying we "lost them to suicide"...they were overrun by depression..lost them to depressive illness...or they couldn't feel our love due to depression...as I said before, a suicide by any other name is still a suicide.

And we are the ruins of that decision. It takes a very long time to find reasons to live...it takes some of us longer than others. But that is what survivors have to do...we have to try to make sense out of a senseless act.

[Alffe]

Prevention...what does one say to the repairman on the pantry floor, in tears from a phone call he's just answered. His only brother, his younger brother has just attempted suicide for the third time...serious attempts that he's been saved from before.

What does one say to this stranger that can offer some hope when in your heart you are pretty darn sure that one of those phone calls will bring news of his success.:(

Well, we shared one of "those" hugs and exchanged emails addresses and when he left...I prayed for them all.

I'm still reeling from the experience last Thursday. :(

[mistiis]

d*m, I hate this beast!!!!!!!! And why, oh why, can't these 'blue' genes that some of us seem to carry be seen just as that, like cancer, or some other so called 'physical' disease?
Is it really senseless???? Is it senseless when someone makes lifestyle choices that cause cancer, or heart disease, but they still do it and then die from a heart attack?? What is truly the difference?? Is it the stigma?? Or is it simply because it is not understood??

I can see both sides. And what is needed is more discussion and more understanding. Yes, prevention is vital. But for that, more knowledge is needed. And all this, unfortunately takes time and dedicated people like Alffe, and now you Nikki, and David. And those of us who are coming along. I feel for, and pray for, all of us, on both sides of this storm.
TG for this forum and its members........:grouphug:

[Alffe]

I think that clinical depression is a "terminal" illness like a lot of other terminal illnesses. I think what is senseless about giving up, is the finality of that "decision". It assumes that there will be no cure, no new drug to hold it at bay. No hope of new horizons...it's that "Forever Decision".

Mistiis I honestly don't know what more you can do than you are already doing to fight the beast. Pter fought it his entire life and died of natural causes. BJ has done everything she can think of to hold it at bay.

I think a lot of people are getting educated about recognizing the signs of depression, of reaching out to offer comfort...if you don't have people in your real life that can understand the difficulty you face just in trying to breathe in and out some days then you need new and different people around you. :grouphug: I honestly applaud your efforts and I really do care.

[Junie]

I can relate to all of this! I used to in my younger years think anyone that could take their own life had to be a coward, and that included myself! As the years went by and I saw all the suffering as a hospice nurse began to understand much more and my own experience last month made me rethink all of this! I can truly say I was not in my right mind that night, and but for the spark of sanity left in me I to would be gone! I love my family no matter how they have treated me and never once did i give a thought about anything except that I would be easing their pain by leaving this world..the pain of having to help me, of hiding plans for a weekend trip because I may want to go, the financial burden I felt responsible for! Now of course I can see the dumbness of this thinking and was even able to patch things up with my sisters by sharing all of this with them and hopefully I just may get more support but I won't be betting my life on it ! I also took control back from dh by letting im know I will be putting all my backpay in my own account in case I felt the need to get away from him and so far it has scared him enough to treat me better then I thought him capible so far! I don't know if the good will last but it feels amazing to feel I have some control over my life again and I don't want to risk losing it!
I couldnot have done all of this without the help and support I found here and I will be forever grateful and who knows, maybe someday I may be able to help someone else!
Sorry for the book!:)

[Alffe]

So glad that things have taken a turn for the better Junie...thank you for sharing that. This is a wonderful forum to let it all out...and as Mistiis said..if you need help getting it in gear again...just hollar! *grin

[Nik-key]

This is so hard :(

Dear ((mistiis)) There are many people in this world who DO understand that most suicides are caused by a mental illness of some sort. There are two tragedies with every suicide.... one being the person who took their life saw suicide as their ONLY option. The second being the family left behind to suffer an unimaginable hell...

I have had suicide effect my life in the past. Each loss was tragic in its own right. Never once did I think badly of the person. If anything, my heart wept for the pain they must have felt. The personal hell they must have been in.

When David first told me that about my Dad, him not being capable of rational thought at that moment, I pondered and pondered about that. I kept thinking about that lady who drowned her children. I remember people saying she was out of her mind. I remember thinking, of course she was! No sane mind could do such a horrific thing. It led me to understand that Dad had an illness, and it wasn't of the cancer/ "physical" kind.

After Dad's suicide, I recall all too clearly the desperation I had to go be with him.....at any and all cost. I was in shock, I was in a deeper pain that I can ever try to express. I saw no way to live with this pain. I did not want to....my Dad was gone.

It was not his death that caused this type of pain, this type of reaction. It was the way in which he died. His "choice" to take his own life, to abandon me and our family.

His hell ended that day. Yet, his suicide created a new and certain hell for me to now face. Every single person who loved him, his 7 children, his wife, his ex wife(my mom) his siblings, his grandchildren, his friends.. each and every one of them..... now know a hell that was forced upon them. They had no choice. The whys, will never be answered. The what ifs will haunt each of us until our hell is over too.

My heart breaks because my Dad was in such excruciating pain. It kills me that I didn't know, that I wasn't able to help him, save him. It has the power to destroy me.

I think most people, at some point in their life have thought about how "easy" it would be to end it all. I know when I was diagnosed with my diseases, I could not imagine living in this horrific pain. I had major depression. Over the years I fought hard and I won that battle. So, I knew the beast of depression. I knew what it was like to believe you were in too much pain to face another day. But... it wasn't until Dad's suicide, until the pain of his loss was so great... that I knew what it was like to make a plan.

I CAN see it from both sides, because I have lived both sides. Neither side is easy. My heart breaks for Dad's pain. But, in brutal honesty, his "choice" has left more pain that he could have possibly been in. I do NOT say that lightly!! I can not know how much pain he was in, but I do know it had to have been great for him to reach that point. Even knowing that......... I feel certain that his own hell, his personal hell... was not as great as the hell he left behind. His personal hell has now spread, much like an invasive unrelenting cancer. It did not die with him. It now lives in each and every person who loved him.

*sigh, tragic no matter which side you try to look from. What can be done? If every person effected, on both sides.... reached out, did even one small thing toward... self help, prevention or helping the survivors left behind...
Imagine the possibilities!!! :grouphug:

[Curious]

We can never know the exact state of mind of person who commits suicide. Those who have tried come the closest.

But with that state of mind, do you think they were actually thinking of choices? I don't. I think it was the only thing they thought would stop the pain. Not really a choice. Just what they had to do.

[Nik-key]

I agree ((curious)) and is why I used "choice". With Dad I think the best words I can find is a desperate act. ~sigh

[who moi]

hey D, it's good to see you posting and get everyone's wonderful brain juices flowing...

I have another take on this...about honorable suicides...

the Japanese's honorable suicides because they were shamed

the suicide bomber's suicides because they were promised heaven...

I also wonder about the internet suicide and how SOME people can actually EGG on suicide telling the guy to "do it..."

sure, some of them would claim that they were just calling his bluff and such, but still....to have that kind of mentality to egg someone on whether to call someone's bluff or not bothers me...don't get me wrong, I DID stupid things in my life and still DO stupid things...

but I can't see myself egging someone else on no matter how much I think they're bluffing...

I know it is not what you're trying to convey but that's what's popping in my head at this time...it is 3:15am so I am sure I am NOT making any sense...LOL

[mistiis]

I think one of the reasons this is so hard to talk about is, just like you said dear Alffe, the finality of that decision. But, I wonder, about the 'decision' in it. Its like being stuck in a really strong current. Some people survive and get pulled out or thrown a life line, and some, unfortunately do not. I look at it now as a very tragic accident. That is what suicide is, a very tragic accident. Accidents can be avoided. Some of them we can't make sense out of, others we can look at and say, oh there were drugs or alchohol involved causing it. There are just so many factors invovled in any one suicide. But, it is still a tragic accident!!!! And, in accidents, people get hurt. People die. People have to pick up the pieces. And people help people. That is what it is all about.

I was so moved by your reply about the repairman dear Alffe that I was in tears, for you, for him, for his brother. It filled me with so much emotion. I have never felt as strongly as I did at that moment to come on and post. But, then, I am having some issues to deal with that are making things really difficult right now. So I can see how, I think, each of you would have felt, and that poor man's brother.

Yes, depression, can be seen as a terminal illness. For some it can be more easily treated than for others. Blazing a path is a difficult thing to do. Like the first great explorers, it takes those willing to go where others have not. As can be seen with Pter, there are other ways to fight those thoughts, but there can be mitigating factors too.

So, I am exploring here. Everything that I can learn will help me, and anyone that I hope to help. I have seen the pain in anothers eyes from having lost loved ones to suicide, and the questions that remain after years. It is really heart wrenching. A statement that was made to me..."I don't understand how anyone could make that kind of choice" And all I could say was, I understand. I wish that I didn't. I really wish that I didn't understand. But, hopefully, understanding will enable me to reach out to others in prevention.



((((Nikki))))) :hug: Yes, I can imagine the possibilites.

Keep talking my friends. You are trail-blazers

[GmaSue]

never once did i give a thought about anything except that I would be easing their pain by leaving this world..the pain of having to help me

I am sure many people think they "know" that once their family gets over the shock, that they will be better off without them. So they think they are doing them a favor. I remember one time feeling so insignificant that I was shocked when an automatic door detected my presence and open for me. I had totally expected to have to push it open. A few months later, I was reading a magazine and a woman was telling the same story, Imagine how many people must feel this way-so insignificant and yet such a burden.

[Nik-key]

((Sue)) I am saddened by your post, yet at the same time I admire your strength and courage :hug:

I can assure you, as much as someone may think they "know" the world would be better off without them, they are wrong. Dad did me no favors. There is not one thing in this world that is better without him. Not one. In fact it is a cold, dark, lonely place without him.:(

I am sure these thoughts were among many Dad had before he took his life.... I think it ironically tragic ... that what he may have thought would "help us" , destroyed us. :Sob:

My dear friend, I "detect" your presence :hug: You have reached inside yourself time and time again to give, to children in need, to your family, your friends..... You have touched my heart, you have given me the gift of friendship....is that insignificant? Hardly! You are precious, never forget that :hug:

I love this quote, and it is my wish for you ((Sue)):hug:

“This is my wish for you: Comfort on difficult days, smiles when sadness intrudes, rainbows to follow the clouds, laughter to kiss your lips, sunsets to warm your heart, hugs when spirits sag, beauty for your eyes to see, friendships to brighten your being, faith so that you can believe, confidence for when you doubt, courage to know yourself, patience to accept the truth, Love to complete your life.”
Author: Unknown

[Nik-key]

I am not sure where to put this, so I thought where we are talking frankly I would post it here.....

This thought has been on my mind so much lately, I just have to get it out. I know the beast of depression. I have lived it. I know the struggles. As I told a dear friend of mine recently, I don't know your particular battle, but we are all in the same war.

I have been trying to find a delicate way to say what is in my heart..... please know I am not trying to offend anyone :hug:

I know many of you think you can imagine what it feels like to be a survivor of suicide. You think you can see both sides clearly. I feel this is one case you truly can not know, unless you have lived it. Unless you have lost someone you love, someone who was part of your soul .. you just can't possibly know.

I thought I could do this, turns out I am crying too much... just know, no matter how dark your world feels, people love you. If you can't hang on for you, damn well hold on for them! Much love to all of you :hug:

[Alffe]

I can't find the post I wanted to respond to...it resounded in my soul. A tragic accident..........That's what Pter convinced me Michaels death was..a horrible ending to drinking brandy, playing the lottery and being lonely for his fiance'... Pters words exactly...a tragic accident.

And then the moderator telling me that she'd " never heard of someone putting a gun in their mouth and accidently blowing their head off."

Words hurt....words comfort. I came home to a ton of emails..one from my neighbor, deperately asking me to help..written last Sat. Her only remaining son wants them to go on a cruise with them as the anniversary of his brothers death approaches...I hope she'll do this...it won't matter where they are on that date, they'll be miserable in remembering.

We always used to go away on that date....somehow wanting/hoping to replace the memory with a new one.

Nikki.....I know that you know....:hug: We are living examples of the lives that are ruined by anothers "actions".

Hugs for the room. :grouphug: *whisper...pretty depressing party you all had. *grin.

[Nik-key]

I am going to post this one thing, because I don't want it eating me, then I need take a break for a bit. March is looming, the one year anniversary.........

Dearest ((Alffe)) I am comforted that you have found this peace with your beloved Michael. :hug: I hope you know me well enough to know what I am about to say, is a reflection of my thoughts on my Dad's death. I would never do or say anything to hurt you or anyone here. :hug:

Dad was stone sober when he took that gun and shot himself. Dad's death was indeed tragic, but it was not an accident. I wish to God it had been. I wish he had been drunk or on drugs. It wouldn't make the pain less, but it would give me a something to blame.... other than him.

I know what it is like to hurt so badly that you just do not think you can face another day. I KNOW!!! But I damn well do it!!! Before when I was going through my darkest time in my pain, I wanted to die to end that pain ....so badly that I went to a Minister to ask if I would go to Heaven. He assured me I would. But he didn't stop there, he was someone safe that I could talk with. And I didn't stop there. I sought help, I fought and I fought. Much like a physical illness will not be cured by wishing it away, neither will an illness of the mind.

In my pain I did think of my family, I couldn't do it to them. So when I couldn't fight for me another moment, I fought for them. Then I only had an inkling of the pain my death would leave behind. It wasn't until Dad took his life that I knew .....truly knew, the hell suicide leaves behind. Now it is a fact, no matter how great my pain, I will not hurt others as Dad's suicide is hurting me.

I feel it worthy of repeating, Dad's hell, did not die with him! It now lives in me, it now lives in every single person who loved him.

I admit I am in a very bad place right now. I truly can see both sides, hell, I am living both sides!! If it sounds like I am angry, it is because I damn well am. It breaks my heart that Dad was in such pain. I can feel my soul being ripped apart. When Dad couldn't fight for himself any more, why didn't he fight for me? He didn't even give me a chance to help him. I know he fought, but damn it, he didn't fight hard enough!

This is the face of suicide..........

http://i39.tinypic.com/14bmbtl.jpg

The last picture of Daddy, not 2 weeks before he took his life...
http://i43.tinypic.com/a5g70z.jpg

How could I know?? Why didn't he tell me?
Why? WHY!!!??? What if.... WHAT IF!!!??? :Sob: :hissyfit: :Sob:

[Alffe]

I am going to post this one thing, because I don't want it eating me, then I need take a break for a bit. March is looming, the one year anniversary.........

Dearest ((Alffe)) I am comforted that you have found this peace with you beloved Michael. :hug: I hope you know me well enough to know what I am about to say, is a reflection of my thoughts on my Dad's death. I would never do or say anything to hurt you or anyone here. :hug:

Dad was stone sober when he took that gun and shot himself. Dad's death was indeed tragic, but it was not an accident. I wish to God it had been. I wish he had been drunk or on drugs. It wouldn't make the pain less, but it would give me a something to blame.... other than him.

I know what it is like to hurt so badly that you just do not think you can face another day. I KNOW!!! But I damn well do it!!! Before when I was going through my darkest time in my pain, I wanted to die to end that pain ....so badly that I went to a Minister to ask if I would go to Heaven. He assured me I would. But he didn't stop there, he was someone safe that I could talk. And I didn't stop there. I sought help, I fought and I fought. Much like a physical illness will not be cured by wishing it away, neither will an illness of the mind.

In my pain I did think of my family, I couldn't do it to them. So when I couldn't fight for me another moment, I fought for them. Then I only had an inkling of the pain my death would leave behind. It wasn't until Dad took his life that I knew .....truly knew, the hell suicide leaves behind. Now it is a fact, no matter how great my pain, I will not hurt others as Dad's suicide is hurting me.

I feel it worthy of repeating, Dad's hell, his personal pain, did not die with him! It now lives in me, it now lives in every single person who loved him.

I admit I am in a very bad place right now. I truly can see both sides, hell I am living both sides!! If it sounds like I am angry, it is because I damn well am. It breaks my heart that Dad was in such pain. I can feel my soul being ripped apart. When Dad couldn't fight for himself any more, why didn't he fight for me? He didn't even give me a chance to help him. I know he fought, but damn it, he didn't fight hard enough!

This is the face of suicide..........

http://i39.tinypic.com/14bmbtl.jpg

How could I know?? Why didn't he tell me?
Why? WHY!!!??? What if.... WHAT IF!!!??? :Sob: :hissyfit: :Sob:

That beautiful picture brought me to tears. Suicide was the last thing on your Daddys mind when that picture was taken.

You take all the time you need dear Nikki....we are right here. :grouphug:

[Xienite]

Mik-key, I have to say that your post has deeply touched many feelings in me. Sadly, I too am on both sides, unfortunately more than once. My mom took her life 38 years ago when I was 21. I still remember that day, what I said when I got "the call". Amazing that my dad or my sister don't remember that day. Sadly last year my cousin took his own life at the age of 44. It is still a topic not to be discusded in my family all these years later. Maybe, just maybe if we talked about my mom's suicide, my cousin would have known the pain we were in. I'll never know, nor will his daughter know her dad, or my mom know my son or grand-buddies or them know what a loving person she was.

It's a wor.d full of whys, could I have, and all the questions with no answers. I just wanted to let you know that I understand and my heart aches for all of us.

[barbo]

I agree with you 100% Curious.

[Curious]

:grouphug:

Suicide hasn't touched my life in the same way as some here. So I can only reply from my own perspective. Right or wrong.

I do feel that the inner pain and termoil a person who commits suicide is their own personal breaking point. Maybe if they had given it 5 minutes longer, those feeling would have gone.

But in that frame of mind, there isn't another 5 minutes that they can endure.

I feel such heartache Alffe when you post that Michael's suicide ruined your life. :( You have such a wonderful loving, caring, beautiful family. You give and recieve love from all over the world.

It absolutly SUCKS that your life was changed. Not fair at all. The path you were on went off in a different direction. Halted for awhile.

I do have post this, it's not to add any extra weight on your shoulders, but how many people have NOT committed suicide from reading your posts and others here on the forum? That end of the rope that someone is tugging? That last glimmer of hope that tomorrow might be a tad bit better? That someone cares and will listen?

My wish is that no one should ever had died in vain, that their time on earth meant something and should be shared and remembered.

I love you Alffe. I'm making tear soup..want a bowl?

(pm to follow if my modem stays on)

[Alffe]

What a lovely post Curious...how about if I just sit here and bawl? *grin

I shouldn't use words like ruined because I do have much to be thankful for, not the least of which is this forum family and you in particular Curious because you have a forgiving heart in addition to wisdom. I need reality checks when I get on a "slide".

Yes, please let me share the Tear Soup....but first I need to shower. :p

[Doody]

We can never know the exact state of mind of person who commits suicide. Those who have tried come the closest.

But with that state of mind, do you think they were actually thinking of choices? I don't. I think it was the only thing they thought would stop the pain. Not really a choice. Just what they had to do.

Thank you ((Curious)).

[Koala77]

Thank you for posting this Curious. I too bawled my eyes out when I read it!

I've shared some of my pain here in SOS since I joined, and I even re-itterated what I've shared today in another post, but there's more I still haven't confided. Some is still far too painful to talk about!

I had some wonderful, but thankful, words to say to you Curious about your post, but I cried so much when I read it that I completely forgot what I was going to say!

If I remember, I'll post later. :hug:

[Curious]

Awww ((((((((Anne))))))))) didn't mean to make you cry. :hug:

[Abasaki]

:grouphug:
I do have post this, it's not to add any extra weight on your shoulders, but how many people have NOT committed suicide from reading your posts and others here on the forum? That end of the rope that someone is tugging? That last glimmer of hope that tomorrow might be a tad bit better? That someone cares and will listen?


Count me as one of those people... The posts made by those who have lost someone to suicide have caused and continue to cause me to stop and take a breath... sometimes it's a very long breath...but because of all of you sharing your stories as hard as it has been for you.... I'm still here.
Thank you,
:hug:
Abbie

[Curious]

You know I'll always have that other end of the rope for you Abbie. :hug:

[DMACK]

Curious wise words dear friend..wise words.


'Out of tragedy springs forth a fountain of hope' author unknown.



Alffe with out that tragic accident Michael had, and my god it was a tragic accident.

The world would never have quite seen the tireless efforts of humanity and love for mankind, that you and your daughter Bizi display almost daily.

This may hurt and it is not supposed too, or done to upset you but just an observation.

An Accident in terms of Health and Safety prevention ...is described as an event likely to occur if risk is not minimised or controlled.
or an event waiting to happen ........................................

Maybe Michael's Tragic Accident was sadly just that an accident................

Your vigil...........and Stoic resolve to prevent other accidents............is born of your trauma and pain..........[a result of an accident your be-loved son had]

David

[Alffe]

"An Accident in terms of Health and Safety prevention ...is described as an event likely to occur if risk is not minimised or controlled.
or an event waiting to happen ........................................"

Booze, lottery, and guns....very risky stuff!

David I found great comfort in your post...thank you.

[Spanish Moss]

:Heart: too many words to say...no words to come out...:grouphug:

[Alffe]

Oh but when they do come out....such wisdom and compassion! :grouphug:

[COK]

DMack...I saw a good friend yesterday, her sister, also a friend decided to make the choice to end her life. I can still see her walk into where I worked, always so happy or so she seemed.

One day, she drove to the nearest trash dump and shot herself...I have never judged, I once asked why. I now accept that she could find no other way to solve her troubles...she did not find that tiny sliver glimmer of hope. That was 23 years ago, and her SIL was one of best friends...I was not aware of what happened because I was on vacation. I got back, got the news...and went to the cemetary because it was so unbelievable to me. Recently, a man I've known my whole life ended his...he worked at the funeral home...I now do not read the obituaries anylonger...'will I see another person I know'? My DD's best friend's daughter just took a bottle of pills, she will be fine...but what of next time? I know this teenager, I've spoken with her on several occasions...and hopefully I will see her very soon so I can try to make her understand...death is permanent.

We all make choices but I think there will always linger the questions...why? Was life really that bad?...Did I not matter that they wanted to be here for me? I think I strayed from the topic...but I'm tired and its been very trying the past several weeks.

You all take care and take each minute, that soon will be the end of the day and then the next minute will come and life will go on for those left behind...

:hug::hug:

[Alffe]

Walk a mile in their shoes? How can you force someone to value their life? You can't pick up the paper anymore without reading that someone has succeeded....how many have failed only to try again. ~sigh~

I think you need a hug COK....:grouphug:

[who moi]

I love the way this thread has taken off and letting us discuss things...

I have come to the point in my life where I am looking back and looking forward and seeing what I didn't see before and hoping I will see what I didn't...

I think there will be folks that will see themselves through trials and hold on long enough to NOT do the deed..

I think there will be folks that will NOT see the light at the end of the tunnel even if it would only be just another split second later and it is at THAT moment, that second before that the deed would be sealed..

judgement or not, we ALL make judgements....sometimes, judgements are needed for us to understand and study...but once that judgement is made, it should become UNJUDGEMENTED because we have reached some sort of understanding...

I think Judgement and unjudgement is one of those balances...to become unjudgemental after we learn something, is the key for me...

I get judged a lot based on my TS...people would judge me, I have come to realizing that that doesn't make them a bad person, they just don't understand or may not have seen it...but if I take my time out to explain to them and they are STILL judging, then they are NOT worth my time...those that do, they have learned from their judgements...

I know it is a bit off track here but I tend to think about how we learn and how we don't learn...sometimes, judgements are needed for us to learn..

anyways...I may not be making any sense...my own pain have really magnified lately and I apologize for not being here as of late...

((((everyone))))

[Alffe]

glad to see you my friend..sorry about the level of your pain. :hug:

It just seems to me that there should be ads...public service announcement about suicide.....like Don't Kill Yourself...Call Someone!

We have them for drugs all the time. Our paper today is full of a 10 yr old boy handing himself in his schools bathroom. Surely it isn't true. :(

[who moi]

hey Alpho! :D

like Nik said, I have seen a little bit of public announcement here and there but I wonder if the executives don't want people to see "hey, don't kill yourself" after Everybody Loves Raymond...

It IS so in your face, this suicide thing....

you know what I have heard recently? I overheard two ladies talking about one of their friend's son committed suicide from a long time ago...and I guess their friend was just starting to opening up...

now, I don't eavesdrop but they were right next to me and I was not in a position to move so you know, I ended up listening cause it just came to my ears...LOL

anyways, one of them said to the effect of, "well, I just can't handle her...I can't bare to listen to that...I've got enough SH&T of my own..."

her friend agreed reluctantly...

well, what does one who was not supposed to be eavesdropping say to that.....:(

[Alffe]

Oh I would not have been able to restrain myself....you know me better than that!! Shame on them!! :mad:

[DMACK]

Moi i'm sure i too could not be quiet.


I usualy say in times like that.

THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I..........................

People have a habit of dimissing things out of hand when they know nothing about..a subject......sadly araogance in this situation can have an awful habbit of coming back and biting you on the prefervbial.


My sister in Law never spoke too me for two years after my attempt..........when she did start talikng again..... she for another 6 months would not allow her kids stay at our house...because she was concerned i may still be un-stable.............

FIVE YEARS PASSED BYE ...........a 3am phone call informed my wife her sister was in hospital after taking an overdose, .............................two years after that ...............another phone call in the small hours the same sister the same hospital he same reason................

Its quite funny..that this sister in law now sees me as a confident...and a 'person who understands her state of mind'

[i dont often understand her, though i have great empathy towards her..........ps

i never said once do you remember how you treated me.....................[though ive felt it]

Suicide can literally happen to anyone..................all it needs is

a large slice of heartache...several measures of cognative breakdown...three or four lumps of desperation +loneliness, and a pinch of unbareable issolation.

throw in drink/drugs/gamling/violence/relationship breakdowns/ or other social disasters any one or more optional...................and hey presto............given the right timing and setting and this realy could creep into anyones mind...........circumstances change thought processes very quickly..mental health causes change even quicker...............



YES ALFFE i agree we show adverts on TV saying drink/drugs /smoking can all kill..

we have no advert saying SUICIDE WILL KILL......but we should have....

David

[who moi]

*sigh...sometimes, it takes even less than that, Dave...

I am going to come out and admit that lately, I've been battling the demon quietly...

after being sick for almost a month, I found myself in great physical pain as of late...but even more so, mentally...

I have found such a joy with the grandkids around but at the same time, I have been feeling bits and pieces of me dying on the inside lately...and I just cannot pinpoint why...

well, maybe a little bit of it...

I saw a video of someone that played piano beautifully recently...and I thought about how much my parents and my grand parents had aspirations for me of becoming a concerto pianist when I was a very young boy because I showed a little bit of sign that I might be good...

from ages 5-9, I practiced intently and intensely and diligently...

but stopped and only play here and there since then...I have found myself in a re-awakening as of late and feeling like I am tired of my current career choices (part of it due to a very bad economy and other part bored with it) and I have been finding myself wanting to play piano again...not to the point of concerto pianist but just be able to play decently...

I sat down for the first time in months and while I can play, I sucked...my fingers are hard and a bit of my joints are in pain...

and JUST like that....the thoughts of being a failure just hit me like a ton of brick as if I have failed all those that had high hopes for me...nobody knows about it yet I beat myself up...
and I felt like dying inside...

just like that...I wanted to sleep that eternal sleep...

I walked and played with the grandson the next day and while I laughed with him on the outside, I wanted to scream on the inside...just like that...

and I had to come home that night and find some time to myself and ask myself questions...why was it that simple that death was planted in my head??

I had to fight that demon that night...didn't tell anyone...

I am tired physically but more tired mentally lately, it seems...and I have NO idea what is going on although I just shared a little bit of it...and it came...JUST LIKE THAT...

*sigh...anyways, not sure if I wanted to hit the send button but here goes....

[mistiis]

(((Moi))) you have a long pm in your box....:D :hug: Luv u my friend, quit trying to battle him alone. There is strength in numbers...:o :grouphug: thank you for sharing, now let us help. I UNDERSTAND......

[Alffe]

We ladies had nine months to get used to a new little person in our lives.
And when they arrived, they had little say in how we nutured them.

You, dear man, are learning all the feelings that go with parenting and some of them are suprising. It's natural to go back in time and wonder about what would have been, could maybe have been. But as you well know, life has a way of happening to us when we are least expecting it to.

I close my eyes and still see two bundled up people, shivering in the back of a boat out on the lake...trying to hide their love from me and that is all that was keeping us warm that day.

You have so many talents that it must be hard to choose which one to use.....I have enjoyed seeing all of them. :hug:

[mistiis]

Strong emotions can trip other strong emotions that are stuffed away and need to be dealt with. They surface and then we don't know what to do with them. We need to learn how to deal with them in a healthy way. This, too, is a learning process. We may trip and fall, but, hopefully there will be someone to help us up. That is what this forum is all about. :grouphug:

[DMACK]

my dear friend Moi

a poem from me to you.

As a child i loved to please,
I quickly learnt how to appease.
I did for others what they desired,
I lived their dreams is what transpired.

I played on ivory keys aloud,
My only wish to make them proud
My desire to play faded with my age
I reached a time, no.... a different page

My life has turned like, hour glass
My piano life I miss alas
Yet I play the keyboard everyday
And for that time: a price I pay

You see my piano now: is not of sound
My music now is more profound
The clatter of keys: plays my notes
From tales of life and anecdote’s

My dream to be a music star
Was not far-fetched or so bizarre
Until this time I did not know
Just how my life would simply go

Until a friend told me to be true
I wasn’t sure just how he knew
He said he read it: in my thread
He told me symphonies were in my head.

He claimed that music was not all sound
That the words in a song were more profound
He told me to look at the words in my mind
And a symphony in there, I would certainly find

He pointed out I was a fighter
And highlighted my vocation was as a writer
He told me millions would pay to read my story
With all its gore, triumph and glory

So maybe my future is as an author, and a freeman
Where I write about life, and my fight with the demon
I could tell the world of pain and loss
I could also tell of love and my life with moss
But most of all I could write to stay alive,
And that might encourage others on how to SURVIVE.




Moi you are a very talented man ...........and i would queue to be first at the book signing...........so start now [ i will save up to get there]

Now fight that DEMON with your inner strength, resolve and that supurb sense of humour..............WALK TOWARDS THE SUN, AND ALL OF LIFES SHADOWS WILL ALWAYS BE BEHIND YOU DEAR FRIEND.

ST GEORGE is on his wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

David

[~scrabble]

Way cool, David.

[mistiis]

A person without a dream is like a broken-winged bird that cannot fly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1hTZcwYCIU&feature=related

[who moi]

mist, thank you for that wonderful PM...will reply soon...(((BIG HUGS)))

~~~~~~~~~~

Alpho, I am wondering if I should wear a 10lb dumbell around my waist for 9 month just to see if I can get a sense of this nurturing although I am afraid my dumbell will turn out to be a well, DUMBELL...LOL

Life is funny that way, isn't it? The unexpected makes life while we want what is expected, which is also life but that part can get boring cause we expect it...hmmmm...balance...

did we tried to hide our love? maybe the shivering part was cause I was trying to cop a cheap feel...LOLOLOL just kidding...well, it WAS cold that day, wasn't it??? But I felt so warm that day in that boat with you and Mr. Alpho and da wife... :)

It's a funny thing about my "talents" I never was sure that I have any...I always feel like I can do a little bit of this and a little bit of that but I never got really good at anything...maybe that is why I was so frustrated...*sigh...

I feel like I am still searching after all these years...and that time is running out...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

David,

that is such a wonderful poem...I am not saying that because it is about me...I am saying that the POEM itself was very well written and it touched me..if you would've written it for a mosquito, I would've been equally touched...

What I posted was a small part of what has been bugging me but for some reason it was the part that came out...

what you've said about music of the writing is so true...I have seen it too...in many others photos and poetries and artworks and writings as well as yours...

I wish I believe in myself as much as you and others believe in me...one of my biggest champions have always been moss...

and others have encouraged me as well and now you...

I feel so honored...and I am really blushing here as I type this because I feel like I am just such a small part of this universe and this here them forum and that this poem will be saved as well as others have written for me (thank you, mist, duck, and moss) and that since some of you have such faith in me that I will really try to get good and in gear and start writing...I have always felt the urge to write...and while I have...I really need to get my butt in gear and start writing

whether it gets to be published or not, it doesn't matter...what matters is that I have such encouragements from you and others...

IF I was ever lucky enough to get published...you don't ever have to be in queue, David, you'll be sitting on our couch and we're going to have a cup of tea and I am going to ask you tons of question and learn from your brilliant mind...and I will do that with each and everyone of you because I feel like I am the perpetual student...

and of course, da moss and I will throw a big party and get you all over and have BIG GET IT TO GO.... :D

thanks so much, David...it was so cool...thank you...from the BOTTOM of my heart...

~~~~~~~~~~~~

now, back to our regularly scheduled topic...were we talking about "Frank"

:)

[DMACK]

quote"David,

that is such a wonderful poem...I am not saying that because it is about me...I am saying that the POEM itself was very well written and it touched me..if you would've written it for a mosquito, I would've been equally touched.."end-quote

Mois

could not resist this challange


I try to be kind... I try to be good
I don’t bite kids, I couldn’t if I could
I too like the beach, the sand and the sun
But people just attack me and that ain’t much fun.

I usually go to Europe, though I’m really fond of swamps,
New York isn’t bad at times, and I really like Duchamp’s
But it’s not much fun when you holiday alone
Finding food is difficult, so you do it on your own

I don’t really mean to bother humans, or to bleed you people dry
But without a daily shot of Rhesus- neg, I’m sure I’m going to die.
I know that I am a nuisance, I am sure that I’m a pest
So cover up and use your creams, and let me try my BEST.


David


Think of a pest, one that’s worse than the rest
One that gets under your vest, and skulks in a nest

One that hides in the wings, and then bites when it stings
One that hides in the crowd then pounces out loud.

Think of a pest that could cause you to die
And enjoys showing off when it flies in the sky.

Think of that net that might cost a few bucks!
Imagine the pain without one?? It sucks!

Think of the sprays and the creams, you use to fend off
Prepare to protect, and let the others just scoff.

Because whilst you sit in the sun, enjoying your Burrito’s
Some unprepared fool, is being eaten by Mosquitoes’

David

ps taliking frankly...............mosquitoes get a rough ride in life dont they...lol

[who moi]

LOLOLOL Dave, too cute...it would make for a great Children's Book, really...

about a kid mosquito that felt like he/she's a pest to everyone and decides to leave home. Then in venturing out, it found that out sucking blood isn't such a bad thing and that it found out that it is a universal sucker (A,B,AB, O) and that it just need to learn to be a mosquito and not a frog or fly or Dracula or something...you know, one of those finding yourself and self-esteem books...except it's done through the blood bank... ;)

hmmmmmm...I think we should sit down and write this book together...LOLOL

on the other hand, when you come visit us, we'll take you to the see our mosquitos here, around here, they're known as the STATE BIRD....

http://www.mosquitocontrolofiowa.com/images/mosquito%20joke%20pic.jpg

http://www.madeyoulaugh.com/cartoons/mosquito/mosquito.jpg

http://www.jokefile.co.uk/animal_jokes/mosquito.jpg

[DMACK]

LMAO

Moi i like that idea made me chuckle

[barbo]

We can never know the exact state of mind of person who commits suicide. Those who have tried come the closest.

But with that state of mind, do you think they were actually thinking of choices? I don't. I think it was the only thing they thought would stop the pain. Not really a choice. Just what they had to do.
I absolutely agree with you Curious.

[barbo]

That beautiful picture brought me to tears. Suicide was the last thing on your Daddys mind when that picture was taken.

You take all the time you need dear Nikki....we are right here. :grouphug:
Nikki he loved you. He just couldn't chase the demons away.

[mistiis]

Thank you dear Barbo...:hug:

[Alffe]

While looking for something else, I found this wonderful thread and so I am bumping it up. :grouphug: