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Old 04-17-2012, 06:36 PM   #11
waves
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Heart O m g !!!

Hi Addy!

good to see you! I hope you are well these days... I'm afraid i've been a bit (well, more than a bit! ) out of touch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Addy View Post
I have a question - do any of you believe these people can be helped and "cured" of their narcissistic behaviour?
it is unlikely because most narcissists believe they are fine. The greater the extent of their narcissism, the less likely they are to accept help, much less seek it out!
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I ask this because I must admit that I was totally duped by this person
Yup yup yup... they are experts at that.
Quote:
And that makes me think of another question. There is a very real fear that this person, should the "opportunity" ever arise (severe allergy to bee stings)... this person would leave my loved one to die. Do these people have a higher rate of committing crimes like domestic abuse and/or murder?
Higher rate of domestic abuse, yes. Domestic abuse by a possessive partner can lead to persecution (stalking) and aggression that causes death in some situations. Many abusers are narcissists.

As to the specifics of your question, i'm going to venture some hypotheses based on my reading, but do please bear in mind that my ultimate conclusions are deductions based on my reading.

A typical narcissist's hallmark is their lack of empathy (although most are brilliant at feigning empathy and altruism). A narcissist's behavior is generally governed by "what's in it for them," and this often includes keeping up appearances. Saving someone's life is a major way to boost one's own image in the eyes of others. Moreover, the narcissist will see the rescue-ee as owing them their life! It would feed their sense of entitlement and power over the other person....talk about a HUGE manipulative edge! So, i think a pure narcissist is more likely to save a person than to let them die even in a troubled relationship (perhaps especially therein - as it is a public demonstration of their "goodness."

Lack of empathy is distinct from sadism. Empathy involves experiencing similar feelings to those experienced by another. Lack of empathy means being unable to relate to or care about others' feelings and thus having no compunction about being cruel and inflicting pain for purposes of self-gain. Sadism, on the other hand, is more of an inverted sense of empathy, where the subject experiences joy at others' pain.

When a narcissist has frank sadistic characteristics, some apply the term "Malignant Narcissism" - a severe form of psychopathy. These individuals will perform acts of outright cruelty, with a primary intent to do harm, not necessarily for convenience, even simply for pleasure. A malignant narcissist might not only leave a person to die... they might stay there to watch, and enjoy it.

I will keep your friend in my thoughts, Addy. I hope she is able to get away from this person real soon... with the children!

A final thought - since your friend has such a severe allergy, I think the safety issue here goes beyond whether someone else will help... what if she were alone? Could she ask her doctor to prescribe a pre-filled epinephrine injection that she can self-administer? She should keep it in on her/in her purse.
click here: EpiPen
Do keep us posted on the situation if you feel ok to do so, Addy. Meanwhile, how are you doing yourself?

~ waves ~
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:17 PM   #12
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hi Bizi and Waves...
Yes, I actually think you are both right - there is no hope for this person to be changed because he actually doesn't see he needs changing.

He is now at a point where he is telling his wife to leave... that he doesn't want to have to explain this all to his parents... so she is the one who should leave. I think she is standing her ground and he will be the one who leaves. Her Mom is very involved with this and I (the aunt) am not supposed to know... sigh... its tough because I want to help her so badly. I gave my sis a book to give to her (took me a year to give it to her as I knew I had to wait for the right time- it was a book recommended by a woman who runs a shelter).

She has carried an epi-pen for years and has still had to call the ambulance a few times.

It really helps me to read about narcissism so I thank you all for your input. I don't think he is sadistic but I do know he has an anger and control issue - he has done some horribly bizarre things to her. Thankfully it is all documented and she has gone to her doctor about his behaviour. He has also written her emails about how much he doesn't care about her and the children.

I honestly think it will only be a matter of time... it seems like baby steps to those of us on the outside... but to those who are living in it... well, it takes courage and time...
I have come right out and said to my sister... what if something should happen to her?... and I know my sis is a mess over all of this. Even my sons can't stand the guy - they never have liked him... its as if they knew. My eldest is quite a red-neck type and just wants to "beat him to a pulp" (that kind of talk is so unlike me!!! sigh... but, geesh, we love her so much!).

I will definitely keep you in touch with this... I'm here a lot and I know one day I will tell you she is safe.

I'm doing quite well, thanks for asking. I have managed to secure a job which has a very healthy environment and I am able to chose my own hours. I have been quite "healthy" for several months now. Each night I go to bed I still expect that horrible anxiety to overtake me... and I almost "look" for it ... its as if I am more comfortable with the uncomfortable... because its what I've know for so long. But, its not happening... so I take every bit of love from my family, friends... and laugh as much as I can.

Addy
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:57 PM   #13
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you sound really healthy addy, am happy for you.
((((HUGS))))
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This is harriet, my sweet baby girl.....
heavy sigh.....
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one day at a time....
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Addy View Post
He is now at a point where he is telling his wife to leave... that he doesn't want to have to explain this all to his parents... so she is the one who should leave.

Hi,

When badly behaving men make clear statements like that, women should listen.
She needs to move out very soon for her safety and the safety of her children.

M
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:22 PM   #15
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Heart Dear Addy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Addy View Post
He is now at a point where he is telling his wife to leave... that he doesn't want to have to explain this all to his parents... so she is the one who should leave.
I am afraid I concur with Mari. In these cases what might be economically or pragmatically "fair" takes second priority. Your niece's mental, emotional and possibly physical health are at stake, as well as that of the children. The faster they all get away from him the better off they will be. Staying against his wishes will only aggravate the situation. If there are material interests (house etc) which might be affected by her "abandoning" the home, then she might try to get a request for him to leave via email or other written form.

If she has a decent income, it might be best to forgo material rights to common property in the interest of not having anything further to do with him. I have a friend going through a divorce (i think it's 2 years now... he dragged it out, withheld information, lied, made false accusations... ugh!... it's been awful for her. It would be even worse with children involved.

Quote:
I don't think he is sadistic but I do know he has an anger and control issue - he has done some horribly bizarre things to her.
Any chance you might give an example? I do hope he is not sadistic!

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I will definitely keep you in touch with this... I'm here a lot and I know one day I will tell you she is safe.
yes, please.

Quote:
I'm doing quite well, thanks for asking. I have managed to secure a job which has a very healthy environment and I am able to chose my own hours. I have been quite "healthy" for several months now. Each night I go to bed I still expect that horrible anxiety to overtake me... and I almost "look" for it ... its as if I am more comfortable with the uncomfortable... because its what I've know for so long. But, its not happening... so I take every bit of love from my family, friends... and laugh as much as I can.
all of this is wonderful, Addy! Congratulations on the job! I know what you mean about expecting suffering when it has been the norm for a long time... i tend not to think it is about comfort though, i'd more say that we adapt our expectations to reality. However, that is an ever-evolving process, so as you now encounter more and more positive experiences, i am quite sure your thinking patterns will change accordingly.

I am so glad you have a loving family around you... and laughter is a great medicine, isn't it?

~ waves ~
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:48 AM   #16
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Addy,

She needs to get a consultation with a lawyer. The lawyer knows the state laws with regard to how leaving could interfere with her rights to money for the house.


Some women worry about the house. The best thing financially is for them to move out of the house. It is best for the children and her.

She probably needs a therapist too. The therapist will help her more than any family member can help her.


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Old 04-18-2012, 12:26 PM   #17
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I agree wholeheartedly with all that you have all said here. I don't know why she isn't leaving - perhaps its being stubborn - and maybe she's told him that he should be the one that leaves. I honestly don't think its about the material things... her parents are telling her and the children to "come home"... that they are there for her.

An example of his irrational behaviour- she turned the thermostat up because she was cold. It was dark outside. He turned the heat down then went downstairs and turned the power out to the whole house and left her and the children home in the dark. She didn't know how to turn the power back on I guess this is sadistic.

I'm very frustrated and honestly it just helps me to talk to you all. I'm 500 miles away in a different part of the province so have had no direct contact with her... just superficial, because remember, I am not supposed to know all that I know. Its a horrible position to be in.

She has doctor, lawyer and friend support...

I have to rush out the door so can't take time to write more... at the moment. THANKS so much to you all for your wisdom!
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:47 PM   #18
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Heart very tough - i hope she moves out SOOON

Dear Addy

I have blabbed on at length about narcissistic behavior in here, maybe some of this can be useful to be aware of in an immediate sense, but ultimately, things tend to get worse not better and I really hope your niece chooses to move out very soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addy View Post
An example of his irrational behaviour- she turned the thermostat up because she was cold. It was dark outside. He turned the heat down then went downstairs and turned the power out to the whole house and left her and the children home in the dark. She didn't know how to turn the power back on I guess this is sadistic.
Well, first and foremost, you asked about domestic violence before. This IS an example of domestic violence and I recommend your niece seek out, specifically, a domestic violence counselor. This example is most certainly psychological abuse (rampant with narcissists) but depending on your niece's physical needs and resources along with those of the children in her care, it might be considered physical abuse as well.

That said, while it is an example of cruelty, it does not seem necessarily sadistic. This example sounds more like a power struggle, and not at all irrational - if you apply a narcissistic rationale:

Your niece changed something in a way that crossed him. He took control back (reset temp). He then upped the ante to demonstrate that she could not/must not do that again, that he was in control. The focus seems to be about asserting his power over either her/them or his living quarters, his territory.

I'd say that if other occurrences are similar to this, the albeit unkind actions are probably not the end but the means, there is nothing to suggest sadism. Simple narcissists will use any means to get what they want out of a situation. Toying with others' feelings are very effective means to do this. Narcissists do not relate to others' feelings so they just seek out one's "buttons" and push them repeatedly and strategically until they elicit behavior that feeds their own ego. They do not care whether the other person feels like a queen or a serf in the process.

If you think back to the beginning of the relationship, this guy was probably all sweet and nice, right? And i'm sure your niece was really in love and every attention he paid her i'm sure elicited more attentions paid to him That is an example where making someone else feel good works for a narcissist. When the relationship starts to cool... the incoming attentions isn't enough so different sources of ego-food (or "Narcissistic Supply") is sought.

Deference is another form of N-Supply, as is territorial or personal control. Requiring deference, or attempting to assert personal control over your niece and/or their children would mean he is "feeding" off their personal submission to him, and that is very dangerous to all of them, even in the absence of sadism.

summary:
A sadist enjoys cruelty for its own sake. If you hear of behaviors where this guy is enjoying harm caused and it isn't a manipulation, then, he really could have sadistic traits. IN THAT CASE
--- OR ----
IF HE EVER gets even close to physically abusive, or seems to want to CONTROL/MONITOR whom your niece sees, where she goes, or when she comes and goes, etc.
---THEN---
she really really really REALLY needs to take the kids and high-tail it out of there yesterday.
Another quick note, sorry this is so long (AGAIN!) ...
Narcissists play mind games - Burton mentions "gaslighting" above - where they will do subtle things and then deny doing them, even display utter indignance if accused. Alternatively they will shrug it off as something too petty to be upset about. These things can cause the other person to feel ashamed, ridiculous, inappropriately apologetic, insecure, unstable, and ultimately they might feel they are going nuts.

Quote:
She has doctor, lawyer and friend support...
That is excellent. ... Do please talk to your sis about adding a DV counselor to that list!

Quote:
I'm very frustrated and honestly it just helps me to talk to you all. I'm 500 miles away in a different part of the province so have had no direct contact with her... just superficial, because remember, I am not supposed to know all that I know. Its a horrible position to be in.
((((((Addy)))))) I'm so sorry! Feeling powerless to help someone you love is indeed a horrible thing. Remember you did get that book across to her, and you are speaking with her mom... so you do get a little bit of influence in. You are not completely powerless. And then, there is the connectedness of the universe... if you believe in that... well... just thinking of her, praying for her, or sending her good energy is doing something for her. I know it doesn't feel as concrete as being able to take her out for coffee and look in her eyes, or babysit the kids etc, but just remember everything counts.

And absolutely do please keep coming and talking to us here. We are listening.

lots of s

~ waves ~
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:15 PM   #19
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Hi everyone...

My sincere apologies for not coming back and writing here again... I absolutely know you will understand why.

I have been fighting anxiety over this post. I have tried to write back many times but it makes me go too deep into the unknown. So, I delete what I've written.

I phoned my sister yesterday... and told her how worried I was. As she always does, she reassured me that things are ok. For now. I have to trust her on that...
And I've been emailing with my niece... just a little bit... about the superficial, of course... but just enough to know she's doing quite alright.

My head is not in the sand about any of this. My sis is a very smart, loving mother.

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Old 04-24-2012, 01:59 AM   #20
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Heart Dear Addy

Thanks for the update. I have been thinking about you and your family... I was just about to come "fish you out" from SOS or PM you to see if there were any news... LOL.

I'm sorry you are going through such anxiety that it caused you to delete what you were writing. I realize the distance does not help... with not being directly in touch and all.

I am glad your sister is - as you put it - "a smart, loving mother" and that you expressed your concerns to her.

That's great that you have at least some basic contact with your niece, and get the sense that she is ok for the moment.

Each situation is different, and what you say about the current state of things is hopeful. I hope your niece will transition smoothly out of her current situation. I don't deny that I hope she chooses to do so sooner than later.

You hang in there, and keep talking to us... just to talk if you want. Feel free to PM me if you wish also.

~ waves ~ keeping you all in my thoughts
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