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B1 and liver extract

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Unread 11-28-2010, 02:20 PM   #1
pninn
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Default B1 and liver extract

Dr. F. R. Klenner' protocol for MS aims at reversing damage to the myelin sheathing with B1 and liver extract injectables plus vitamins. My physician last week thought this might be something I could try for my pn. Has anyone heard of trying this for pn?
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Unread 11-28-2010, 02:40 PM   #2
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Do you have a link for this? Why liver extract? For glutathione? or for B12? Liver can be questionable these days, with toxins in it and potential prions.

If you have a link, I'd like to read it.
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Unread 11-29-2010, 01:01 PM   #3
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http://www.townsendletter.com/May200...otocol0503.htm
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Unread 11-29-2010, 01:16 PM   #4
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I tried posting the link here but since I only have 8 posts so far, I wasn't allowed to post it. To get to it I did a Google search on Dr. Klenner and it was in the second site listed.

About a third of the way down this page, under "Letter to the Editor" is one of the tracts given to me by my doctor. She also gave me a copy of Dr. Klenner's full 16 page report for which there is a link on this page -- but when I tried it, it didn't work.

If you like, I can keep trying to find it when I have another moment and and have reached the plateau where I'm permitted to post links.

Thank you, I'm most interested to your thoughts mrs d!
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Unread 11-29-2010, 01:43 PM   #5
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I will study this a bit, and get back to you.

I've been very busy this weekend, and just couldn't get into the details. I did find a monograph on liver extract. This is an old treatment going back to the 40's. We also had oral liver extracts for anemia and B12 pernicious anemia. One was made by Lilly and called Trinsicon. The liver extracts to the best of my knowledge were high in iron, and this is why they were used.

But MS protocols have changed alot since then. The new opening of the jugular veins to release backed up iron in the blood from the brain, is now being done with interesting results. So pumping up MS patients with high iron products is iffy IMO.

Also many MS diagnoses in those days were not accurate. Very low B12 can mimic MS symptoms very closely. Today they do MRIs and lumbar punctures to clarify MS.

I'll get back to this thread in more detail, in a day or so.
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Unread 11-29-2010, 02:24 PM   #6
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I know nothing about MS but my doctor (who knows I've tried most things under the sun for pn) thought I might be interested in reading about this as it is looks on the surface to be a simple and inexpensive approach to peripheral nerve pathology -- and might be worth a try?
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Unread 11-30-2010, 07:44 AM   #7
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Okay here we go.... get some coffee and settle in, because I have reading links for you to consider.

First off I did a little history searching. Where this comes from.
The MS link goes back a decade and is based on information from the 40's or so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernicious_anemia

Quote:
Whipple discovered that ingesting large amounts of liver seemed to cure anemia from blood loss, and tried liver ingestion as a treatment for pernicious anemia, reporting improvement there also, in a paper in 1920. George Minot and William Murphy then set about to partly isolate the curative property in liver and showed in 1926 that it was contained in raw liver juice (in the process also showing that ironically it was the iron in liver tissue, not the soluble factor in liver juice, which cured the anemia from bleeding in dogs; thus the discovery of the liver juice factor as a treatment for pernicious anemia had been by coincidence). For the discovery of the cure of a previously fatal disease of unknown etiology, the three men shared the 1934 Nobel Prize in Medicine.[20].......

After Minot and Murphy's verification of Whipple's results in 1926, pernicious anemia victims ate or drank at least 1/2 a pound of raw liver, or drank raw liver juice, every day. This continued for several years, until a concentrate of liver juice became available. In 1928, chemist Edwin Cohn prepared a liver extract that was 50 to 100 times more potent than the natural food (liver). The extract could even be injected into muscle, which meant that patients no longer needed to eat large amounts of liver or juice. This also reduced the cost of treatment considerably.

The active ingredient in liver remained unknown until 1948, when it was isolated by two chemists, Karl A. Folkers of the United States and Alexander R. Todd of Great Britain. The substance was a cobalamin, which the discoverers named vitamin B12. The new vitamin in liver juice was eventually completely purified and characterized in the 1950s, and other methods of producing it from bacteria were developed. It could be injected into muscle with even less irritation, making it possible to treat pernicious anemia with even more ease. Pernicious anemia was eventually treated with either vitamin B12 injections, or else large oral doses of vitamin B12, typically between 1 and 4 mg (1000 to 4000 mcg) daily.
So now we know liver extract for you would have B12 in it and lots of IRON. I was suspecting that glutathione would be in it too, but I haven't found confirmation of that.

Here is a link to the use of liver extract specifically:
http://www.livestrong.com/liver-extract/

http://www.healthline.com/natstandar.../liver-extract

Here are some papers on what in the extract may be working:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12530518

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9061610

The above 2 were hits from a search using "liver extract neuropathy" keywords

This link has information about repairing myelin with supplements:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/22...ath-with-diet/

This link shows positive results using GLA... which is found in evening primrose and borage oil:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16679766

And this one explains how methylation using methylfolate
and methylcobalamin enable myelination . Some people cannot methylate folate properly, this is called MTHFR genetic failure.
About 10% or more (new research suggest up to 30%) may have this affecting their metabolisms leading to disease and damage. There is more about this on the B12 thread here in the stickies.

Now my comments:

Liver extract is very high in iron. This can be quite problematic for males. (many of the studies back in 2000 and treatments then were done with women, with MS who had blood work showing very low ferritin and iron). So yes, liver extract helped THEM.
But there is little evidence of what the results would be for males.
Here is a link discussing iron overload and issues with males taking extra iron, over and above that which is in food:
http://www.menweb.org/alexiron.htm
Iron overload can be hemochromatosis... which also causes PN.
Or it can just be subclinical but enough to be too much for most men, taking iron as a supplement when they have normal ferritin levels.

Another thing liver is high in is Vit A. So do not take any supplements with A in them if you do this. And monitor for any elevated A levels over time. Hypervitaminosis A can cause increased intracranial fluid pressure giving headaches. (also nausea and vomiting are signs).

The risks in the links about disease transmission are serious and need to be considered. Bacteria and parasites may be killed during processing of the liver extract. But PRIONS cannot be killed because they are not alive...they would remain. Without a guarantee that the cow providing the liver was tested for Prions, one would never know for sure. Prions remain on surgical instruments even after sterilization, it has been found, and those can transmit Mad Cow or nvCJD to others during neurosurgery. So now, those scalpels etc are thrown away!. So I would expect any prions present to sneak thru processing of the extract.

The other risks involved with the liver extract are allergic reaction to the foreign proteins from the cow. Allergic reactions are always possible with vaccines and protein/peptide injections.

It is possible there would be some glutathione in the extract, and if so this is a positive thing to help explain how it might work. But, glutathione, purified can also be used IV, more safely.

The thiamine part, is confusing. Thiamine is pretty well absorbed, and you can smell it in your urine within 2 hrs after taking it orally. The new Benfotiamine form, stays in the body longer, and taking it orally has shown in many studies to be useful for neuropathy. I have a post about it in the Subforum above, under Supplements.

If it were me? I'd go for the purified things that liver extract provides, and do it that way. B12, thiamine (benfotiamine) and perhaps the glutathione. (IV glutathione was mentioned on Dr. Cohen's website by a patient with fluoroquinolone neuropathy, and he claimed it helped alot.

If you do not have a damaged liver, from alcohol or hepatitis, your liver should be making glutathione for you. The supplement NAC taken orally can also help manufacture glutathione.

I think the liver extract is a bit creepy. These days, so many organic things are contaminated, or come from China. The heparin problem still persists because of China's contaminated manufacturing. The natural thyroids were taken off the market by the FDA because of concerns about Chinese extraction methods and safety. (this is very controversial and still mired in a political quagmire!).

Also as one last comment---- recent studies have shown that statins (drugs used commonly to lower LDL cholesterol levels) negatively affect remyelination processes in the CNS. Previously statins were thought to help with inflammation in MS patients and were given in high doses. New studies have shown that repair is inhibited by statins, so that for people taking statins and trying to improve nerve damage, this may not lead to any successes. So statin therapy has been abandoned for those patients now.

If you opt for this treatment, I'd at least find out where that liver extract comes from, and talk to the compounding pharmacy or company who makes it, to satisfy these safety concerns.

So please come back and keep us up to date on your decision and if you do this treatment, we'd all like to know if it helped you, etc.
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Mama gray squirrel hanging upside down on our flat feeder 2014. She is very beautiful IMO and has a lovely tail. There were a few peanuts in this feeder that morning.
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Last edited by mrsD; 11-30-2010 at 08:07 AM.
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Unread 11-30-2010, 12:55 PM   #8
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Wow! Thank you so much for all this research!!! I feel so lucky to have met you mrs d.

My plan for now is 1) NOT do this program 2) try to fully digest everything you've touched on here and 3) share your research with my doctor so that she's more aware of what she's doing before suggesting this program. She's a g.p. and didn't profess any great knowledge about this and I'm sure she'll be grateful too for what you've provided here. I'll let you know if she has any further input when I see her next in three weeks (I'm getting prolotherapy from her for a bad ankle.)

Thanks again!
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Unread 11-30-2010, 01:35 PM   #9
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Yes, I put up alot of stuff for questions like this so people will take copies to their doctors.

The use of iron in males who have normal blood work, is very problematic. And over the past 10 yrs has been linked to heart disease in males. The iron can accumulate elsewhere too. Many doctors don't keep up on the nutrition recommendations that appear. You can also search "mens health" sites and find more about the iron issue. Most mens vitamin formulas in the stores now have NO iron in them. Check the labels and see. This is why.

If severe, it becomes hemochromatosis, which some doctors think is rare, but is really not. Testing stats I have seen put it just about at the rate of identical twinning (1;150 in some studies). You would have skin bronzing as a sign of that. In males it occurs at younger ages, than females, because females have menstrual blood loss monthly. But Marlene's husband here has it.

So the risk of iron overload concerns me, as well as safety issues of how the extract is made. Injecting foreign proteins into muscle is going to hurt and cause difficulties of its own, as well.

You can buy the benfotiamine OTC as well as the B12. Both are on the subforum here.
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Mama gray squirrel hanging upside down on our flat feeder 2014. She is very beautiful IMO and has a lovely tail. There were a few peanuts in this feeder that morning.
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Unread 11-30-2010, 03:19 PM   #10
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i wonder if this is the story with John Boehner ( to be speaker of the house of representatives from Ohio) he looks orange.

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Originally Posted by mrsD View Post
If severe, it becomes hemochromatosis, which some doctors think is rare, but is really not. Testing stats I have seen put it just about at the rate of identical twinning (1;150 in some studies). You would have skin bronzing as a sign of that.
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