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Vinegar and PD

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Unread 09-06-2013, 06:02 PM   #1
reverett123
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Default Vinegar and PD

For the last week I have been experimenting with apple cider vinegar and, much to my surprise, the stuff is pretty impressive! A fair amount of research has built up and some conjecture is possible. But right now I would like for someone else to test it to see if they have a similar experience.

I seem to have improved stability or something similar. I have long had predictable times of the day that I could expect to be at risk of going off. For example, the 10 AM to 11 AM period was one that I tried to spend near home as was the 4 PM to 5 PM time slot. Meds would stop working and take a couple of hours to restart.

There is an interesting phenomenon that diabetics contend with called "post-prandial" hypoglycemia (PPH) and is a drop in glucose two to four hours after eating. With me so far? Hang on, because there is another called "reactive" hypoglycemia (RH) which is very much like the first except that it has no drop in glucose. Get that? Think of it as hypoglycemia - lite.

PPH gets its symptoms from the effect of a drop in sugar levels but RH has no such drop. Yet, it will put you out of commission just like the other. It happens because of an increase in stress hormones cortisol and epinephrine and it can play hell with PD symptoms. At the same time, your body is convinced for some reason that I don't quite grasp yet that we need a flood of insulin!

I gave up trying to understand it there for now and gave it a try. Darned if it didn't work! I had to adjust the dosage down to stay awake, but I have been doing better and better each day.

So, if anyone has any hair on their tail (search for "white rats") get yourself a bottle of apple cider vinegar and try just a one-eigth tsp with each meal. If you don't feel anything then bump it up a time or two. Let us know the results. -Rick
__________________
Born in 1953, 1st symptoms and misdiagnosed as essential tremor in 1992. Dx with PD in 2000.
Currently (2011) taking 200/50 Sinemet CR 8 times a day + 10/100 Sinemet 3 times a day. Functional 90% of waking day but fragile. Failure at exercise but still trying. Constantly experimenting. Beta blocker and ACE inhibitor at present. Currently (01/2013) taking ldopa/carbadopa 200/50 CR six times a day + 10/100 form 3 times daily. Functional 90% of day. Update 04/2013: L/C 200/50 8x; Beta Blocker; ACE Inhib; Ginger; Turmeric; Creatine; Magnesium; Potassium. Doing well.
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Unread 09-06-2013, 11:05 PM   #2
aquario
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Default Dr. Jarvis Vermont doctor

In the early '70's his book was quite popular touting the health benefits of a daily intake of apple cider vinegar and honey. A Vermont Doctor's Guide to Good Health


http://www.doctoryourself.com/honey.htm
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Unread 09-07-2013, 04:29 PM   #3
HarryM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reverett123 View Post
For the last week I have been experimenting with apple cider vinegar and, much to my surprise, the stuff is pretty impressive! A fair amount of research has built up and some conjecture is possible. But right now I would like for someone else to test it to see if they have a similar experience.

I seem to have improved stability or something similar. I have long had predictable times of the day that I could expect to be at risk of going off. For example, the 10 AM to 11 AM period was one that I tried to spend near home as was the 4 PM to 5 PM time slot. Meds would stop working and take a couple of hours to restart.

There is an interesting phenomenon that diabetics contend with called "post-prandial" hypoglycemia (PPH) and is a drop in glucose two to four hours after eating. With me so far? Hang on, because there is another called "reactive" hypoglycemia (RH) which is very much like the first except that it has no drop in glucose. Get that? Think of it as hypoglycemia - lite.

PPH gets its symptoms from the effect of a drop in sugar levels but RH has no such drop. Yet, it will put you out of commission just like the other. It happens because of an increase in stress hormones cortisol and epinephrine and it can play hell with PD symptoms. At the same time, your body is convinced for some reason that I don't quite grasp yet that we need a flood of insulin!

I gave up trying to understand it there for now and gave it a try. Darned if it didn't work! I had to adjust the dosage down to stay awake, but I have been doing better and better each day.

So, if anyone has any hair on their tail (search for "white rats") get yourself a bottle of apple cider vinegar and try just a one-eigth tsp with each meal. If you don't feel anything then bump it up a time or two. Let us know the results. -Rick
I'm in. i'll sqeak up if it helps.

HarryM
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Unread 09-07-2013, 07:48 PM   #4
reverett123
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Default 'Atta Rat, HarryM!

You make your litter mates proud! All 39 of them!

Now for a little science-

1)

1. Int J Neurosci. 1993 Mar-Apr;69(1-4):125-30.

The relationship between diabetes mellitus and Parkinson's disease.

Sandyk R.

NeuroCommunication Research Laboratories, Danbury, CT.

It has been reported that 50% to 80% of patients with Parkinson's disease have
abnormal glucose tolerance which may be further exacerbated by levodopa therapy.
Little is known about the impact of chronic hyperglycemia on the severity of the
motor manifestations and the course of the disease as well as its impact on the
efficacy of levodopa or other dopaminergic drugs. This issue, which has been
largely ignored, is of clinical relevance since animal studies indicate that
chronic hyperglycemia decreases striatal dopaminergic transmission and increases
the sensitivity of postsynaptic dopamine receptors. In addition, evidence from
experimental animal studies indicates that diabetic rats are resistant to the
locomotor and behavioral effects of the dopamine agonist amphetamine. The
resistance to the central effects of amphetamine is largely restored with chronic
insulin therapy. In the present communication, I propose that in Parkinson's
disease diabetes may exacerbate the severity of the motor disability and
attenuate the therapeutic efficacy of levodopa or other dopaminergic agents as
well as increase the risk of levodopa-induced motor dyskinesias. Thus, it is
advocated that Parkinsonian patients should be routinely screened for evidence of
glucose intolerance and that if found aggressive treatment of the hyperglycemia
may improve the response to levodopa and potentially diminish the risk of
levodopa-induced motor dyskinesias.

PMID: 8082998 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

---------------------------

2)
From Kathryn Holden, dietician over at NPF-

"Regarding sugar, I would mention this as well; a large amount of sugar or simple carbohydrates, in sensitive persons, can cause a blood glucose spike, followed by an insulin rush. The insulin removes all the glucose, leaving you in a mildly hypoglycemic state temporarily. You may be particularly susceptible, or even be mildly hypoglycemic, and it would be best to rule this out. Let us know how you are doing."

-----------------------------------

3)
From Life Extension's excellent "HYpoglycemia" (nine pages of nothing but meat!). Go to http://www.lef.org/ and then do a search for it-
"....In contrast to the potentially devastating consequences of over-aggressive drug treatment of hyperglycemia in diabetes patients with
insulin and/or sulfonylureas, reactive hypoglycemia (or postprandial hypoglycemia) is a phenomenon in which blood sugar levels
drop a few hours after eating (UW Health 2013). Typically, reactive hypoglycemia strikes people who are not diabetic but
nevertheless manifest less than optimal glucose control (eg, individuals with prediabetes). These individuals are more prone to
reactive hypoglycemia than healthy people. Reactive hypoglycemia is also more common in people who have undergone gastric
bypass surgery for severe obesity. The drop in blood sugar level (or “crash”) observed in reactive hypoglycemia is the result of an
overly exaggerated insulin spike following ingestion of carbohydrate, with a subsequent reactive plunge in blood sugar level due to
the exaggerated spike in insulin (Brun 2000; Roslin 2011; Middleton 2012; Bell 1985). ....

.... Among people who
experience reactive hypoglycemia, effective prevention hinges upon avoidance of post-meal surges in glucose concentrations
through diet modulation and a variety of natural interventions. For example, the rate of carbohydrate absorption can be slowed by
inhibiting the alpha-glucosidase and alpha-amylase enzymes via supplementation with green coffee extract and Irvingia gabonensis
(Ishikawa 2007; Oben 2008). Moreover, the prescription anti-diabetic drug acarbose also inhibits the alpha-glucosidase enzyme and
slows the absorption of glucose. Unfortunately, many physicians overlook the potential of this well-studied drug to stabilize post-
meal glucose levels and mitigate the exaggerated insulin spike that leads to hypoglycemia (Bavenholm 2006; Hanefeld 2007;
Ozgen 1998). ....

"....With regard to hypoglycemia, the contribution of diet is somewhat counterintuitive. If too much rapidly-digested carbohydrate is
consumed and absorbed quickly, an ensuing hypoglycemic episode can follow if the body generates an exaggerated insulin
response to bring post-meal glucose levels back down (Kuipers 1999). This is called reactive hypoglycemia (Bell 1985). Thus,
interventions aimed at reducing the rapid absorption of dietary carbohydrate can help avoid the reactive drop in blood sugar following
an overly exaggerated insulin spike. ....

....Hypoglycemic symptoms including anxiety, sweating, tremors, and fatigue do not always correlate with glucose levels (Nippoldt
2013). Individuals with low glucose levels may be asymptomatic or unaware of their hypoglycemia, and others with normal glucose
levels may display hypoglycemic symptoms (Bakatselos 2011; Alken 2008; Palardy 1989). .....

.... "
------------------------------------------------------

That's enough for now. The bottom line is that we can have glucose and insulin problems that unbeknown to us play hell with our PD and which may account for things like going off, freezing, and who know what. And by the way, one of the drugs that can cause problems along these lines is levodopa. Known since 1930......





Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryM View Post
I'm in. i'll sqeak up if it helps.

HarryM
__________________
Born in 1953, 1st symptoms and misdiagnosed as essential tremor in 1992. Dx with PD in 2000.
Currently (2011) taking 200/50 Sinemet CR 8 times a day + 10/100 Sinemet 3 times a day. Functional 90% of waking day but fragile. Failure at exercise but still trying. Constantly experimenting. Beta blocker and ACE inhibitor at present. Currently (01/2013) taking ldopa/carbadopa 200/50 CR six times a day + 10/100 form 3 times daily. Functional 90% of day. Update 04/2013: L/C 200/50 8x; Beta Blocker; ACE Inhib; Ginger; Turmeric; Creatine; Magnesium; Potassium. Doing well.
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Unread 09-14-2013, 10:05 PM   #5
HarryM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryM View Post
I'm in. i'll sqeak up if it helps.

HarryM
Tried it for several with no noticeable results but a lingering taste. Yuck !!
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Unread 09-15-2013, 08:29 AM   #6
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Default Vinegar

I will try this. Just joined today

Born 1954. Tremor in right pinkie started in 1995. Dr. Said don't worry about it. Increased to several fingers by 2010. Referral to Neur dr. Diagnosed with MS. 3 months later went Northwestern in Chicago for second opinion. Was diagnosed with PD also. DAT scan in October 2011 confirmed diagnosis. On card/lev 11/2 tablets x's 3 daily. 25-100 mg. Also generic Mirapex 1 mg. x's 3 daily. Still no relief from tremor. Amantadine did not work either. Was taking card/lev 2 tablets x's 3 daily but still no response so went down on dosage. Dr. appt. 10/10/13 aand thought it was time to try to learn as much as I can so I can ask ?'s. Am on no meds for the MS. ThT dr. Told symptoms are mild and he would rather not treat as of this time.

Will try vinegar. Will try just about anything. Hope dr. Doesn't prescribe Requip. Read about some side effects I would rather not have.
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Unread 09-15-2013, 04:43 PM   #7
reverett123
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HarryM=

Thanks for the data. Negative reports are as important as positive.

A question or two if I may. Would you consider yourself to be Senior Onset or Young Onset? And how long have you had symptoms?

Have you observed any patterns in your symptoms reacting with your eating schedule? For example, if you eat immediately upon arising in the morning are things different than if you wait two or three hours?

Again, thanks.
__________________
Born in 1953, 1st symptoms and misdiagnosed as essential tremor in 1992. Dx with PD in 2000.
Currently (2011) taking 200/50 Sinemet CR 8 times a day + 10/100 Sinemet 3 times a day. Functional 90% of waking day but fragile. Failure at exercise but still trying. Constantly experimenting. Beta blocker and ACE inhibitor at present. Currently (01/2013) taking ldopa/carbadopa 200/50 CR six times a day + 10/100 form 3 times daily. Functional 90% of day. Update 04/2013: L/C 200/50 8x; Beta Blocker; ACE Inhib; Ginger; Turmeric; Creatine; Magnesium; Potassium. Doing well.
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Unread 09-16-2013, 07:38 AM   #8
Aunt Bean
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I use vinegar am and PM one teaspoon or more (pour...don't measure) It may be one of the things that Help the PD..never thought about it...use for arthritis. I do have type 2 diabetes and control with diet. Glad to know it is helping you Rick. God Bless!
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Unread 09-16-2013, 06:34 PM   #9
reverett123
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Had a good day today. Took 1/4 tsp at10 am and have remained free of DK all day as well as an extreme sensitivity to light which bothered me yesterday. Slept well last night. Total of ten hours split at 2:00 am into two five hour chunks. The single dose of vinegar was my total intake for the day. That's pretty weird.

Still don't have a theory - no, actually I have several half-formed. Among them:
1) I am borderline diabetc and the proven antiglycemic effects of the vinegar has fixed that. Te problem with that is that my glucometer readings are much like they were six years ago when we first pondered this issue. I stay in the 70 to 120 range. I have even gotten a couple this time during what I would have called an "off" before but is a rather mild one now. Reading 104 was about it. That is not enough to trigger an episode. That would require the 40 to 70 range.
2) it is a real case of the elusive post-prandial reactive hypoglycemic episode. Long thought to be extinct in the wild since the Infamous Tesla Incident of 1932, there is sure to be great controversy attached. Gawd knows I dislike controversy. But the criteria seems to be met.
3) The acidic venegar may have partially corrected an imbalance in the available minerals in the system by increasing the solution density of potassium, calcium, etc.

Well that's all for now.
__________________
Born in 1953, 1st symptoms and misdiagnosed as essential tremor in 1992. Dx with PD in 2000.
Currently (2011) taking 200/50 Sinemet CR 8 times a day + 10/100 Sinemet 3 times a day. Functional 90% of waking day but fragile. Failure at exercise but still trying. Constantly experimenting. Beta blocker and ACE inhibitor at present. Currently (01/2013) taking ldopa/carbadopa 200/50 CR six times a day + 10/100 form 3 times daily. Functional 90% of day. Update 04/2013: L/C 200/50 8x; Beta Blocker; ACE Inhib; Ginger; Turmeric; Creatine; Magnesium; Potassium. Doing well.
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Unread 09-16-2013, 07:23 PM   #10
soccertese
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that is pretty weird since vinegar is mostly water.
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